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Proof of nonexistence of free will

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2018 05:29 pm
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2018 06:31 pm
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2018 06:34 pm
Bertrand Russell wrote:
What is matter? Nevermind.

What is mind? No matter.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Jun, 2018 07:30 pm
@layman,
What is matter? A: Anything humans want it to be.
What is mind? A: A biological conglomeration of an organ that serves as the center of the nervous system.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2018 05:23 am
@layman,
Maybe the deepest thing he ever said.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2018 10:41 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
What is matter? A: Anything humans want it to be.
If someone pays you in dog turds instead of gold because they want it to be gold will you accept it as gold.
Quote:
What is mind? A: A biological conglomeration of an organ that serves as the center of the nervous system.
No, that is a brain. Since has not yet explained the mind or intelligence. Sentana should be here pointing out that you are making a false statement and speaking from authority you do not have.
"Mind" from wiki
Quote:

A phrenological mapping[1] of the brain. Phrenology was among the first attempts to correlate mental functions with specific parts of the brain.

René Descartes' illustration of mind/body dualism. Descartes believed inputs are passed on by the sensory organs to the epiphysis in the brain and from there to the immaterial spirit.[2]
The mind is a set of cognitive faculties including consciousness, perception, thinking, judgement, language and memory. It is usually defined as the faculty of an entity's thoughts and consciousness.[3] It holds the power of imagination, recognition, and appreciation, and is responsible for processing feelings and emotions, resulting in attitudes and actions.[citation needed]

There is a lengthy tradition in philosophy, religion, psychology, and cognitive science about what constitutes a mind and what are its distinguishing properties.

One open question regarding the nature of the mind is the mind–body problem, which investigates the relation of the mind to the physical brain and nervous system.[4] Older viewpoints included dualism and idealism, which considered the mind somehow non-physical.[4] Modern views often center around physicalism and functionalism, which hold that the mind is roughly identical with the brain or reducible to physical phenomena such as neuronal activity.[5][need quotation to verify], though dualism and idealism continue to have many supporters. Another question concerns which types of beings are capable of having minds.[citation needed] For example, whether mind is exclusive to humans, possessed also by some or all animals, by all living things, whether it is a strictly definable characteristic at all, or whether mind can also be a property of some types of human-made machines.[citation needed]

Whatever its nature, it is generally agreed that mind is that which enables a being to have subjective awareness and intentionality towards their environment, to perceive and respond to stimuli with some kind of agency, and to have consciousness, including thinking and feeling.[citation needed]

The concept of mind is understood in many different ways by many different cultural and religious traditions. Some see mind as a property exclusive to humans whereas others ascribe properties of mind to non-living entities (e.g. panpsychism and animism), to animals and to deities. Some of the earliest recorded speculations linked mind (sometimes described as identical with soul or spirit) to theories concerning both life after death, and cosmological and natural order, for example in the doctrines of Zoroaster, the Buddha, Plato, Aristotle, and other ancient Greek, Indian and, later, Islamic and medieval European philosophers.

Important philosophers of mind include Plato, Descartes, Leibniz, Locke, Berkeley, Hume, Kant, Hegel, Schopenhauer, Searle, Dennett, Fodor, Nagel, and Chalmers.[6] Psychologists such as Freud and James, and computer scientists such as Turing and Putnam developed influential theories about the nature of the mind. The possibility of nonbiological minds is explored in the field of artificial intelligence, which works closely in relation with cybernetics and information theory to understand the ways in which information processing by nonbiological machines is comparable or different to mental phenomena in the human mind.[citation needed]

The mind is also portrayed as the stream of consciousness where sense impressions and mental phenomena are constantly changing[7][8]
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Jun, 2018 11:08 am
@brianjakub,
You're a friggin moron.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 02:50 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
What is mind? A: A biological conglomeration of an organ that serves as the center of the nervous system.

The mind is like a integrated data display and analysis module, combining informations from all senses and memory into one coherent (+ or -) vision of the world, as a way to support decision making.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 02:59 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Not bad, like I totally agree that "free will" is a shody concept. "Agency" is much better IMHO.

But he is making a logical mistake in his argument that thesis 1 is incompatible with indeterminism. He does so by playing on the word "able", requesting that it means something like "able to determine what his choice will be". That sounded odd, since he tried from the start to avoid speaking about "will" and yet "determine" in this context is another word for "will".

In short, he takes "can" to mean "will". Hence his mistake. "I can do A, B, C and D" doesn't mean "I can determine before hand which option I will ultimately chose."

So I've solved his problem. Do I get a candy?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 07:27 am
@Olivier5,
Indeterminism negates your will for X wanting resulting in X..."Free Will" both requires Determinism such that you and you alone can authorship your actions, determine them, and on the other hand Indeterminism to escape the chain of cause and effect or perfect correlation from the Big-Bang onwards that trumps your sense of exclusive authorship. In sum it contradicts itself!
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 08:49 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Yes it does negate the concept of will in the classic sense but not the concept of agency, understood as the capacity to make informed choices that one can "own", i.e. identify with.

Assume the following hypotheses:

A universe exists.
It includes patterns, structures that work in certain ways, and the likes. A certain "inherent logic".
One of these patterns is life: the capacity to keep a "form" and multiply it against the forces of entropy, and create through evolution more and more complex forms.
Life includes animals, understood as lifeforms that can move rapidly from place to place.
This capacity is only advantageous if animals move in directions of useful reseources (eg food).
Therefore they need to KNOW where they're going. Hence neurons.
From information management to self-awareness is a mere one little step, probably done way before human beings.
Hence a universe can produce its own mirror, in a sense: an observer, a subject therefore.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 11:26 am
@Olivier5,
Make it a milkshake; pick your own flavor.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Jun, 2018 04:11 pm
@Olivier5,
I don't disagree with anything you said in the last post!
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2018 04:55 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
That must mean you agree, then... :-)
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jun, 2018 05:34 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
From information management to self-awareness is a mere step, probably done way before human beings.
.

Information management to self awareness. A mere step? How about from no information to information management? Another mere step? A step from what and how? Fil help me.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 04:03 am
@brianjakub,
... self-awareness and decision making does not necessarily require free will...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:52 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
How about from no information to information management? Another mere step? 

That would be an impossible step. No information --> no need for information management.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 05:54 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Self-awareness and decision making are enough for agency, though...
brianjakub
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 10:14 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
That would be an impossible step. No information --> no need for information management.
Was there a time when there was no information?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jun, 2018 10:17 am
@brianjakub,
Yes. That's the reason the writers of the bible thought this planet was only 7,000 years old.
 

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