Proof of nonexistence of free will

@Looking4Truth,

OK so you are Looking4Truth but now that you found it, what are you going to do with it? "share it" Idea

@reasoning logic,

We forever gain knowledge yet never come to the knowledge of truth. What is truth? Where can truth be found? When will we see truth? Why don't we see truth? What created truth and it's opposite? Where dId truth come from? How do we know?
Is nothing really a sure thing? Are we lost? Do we have unanswered questions and mysteries? Will we find our way or be found? Will our questions find truth? Are we the question? Do we have an answer? The question remains meaningless without the answer. We are dead without truth. The mind cannot fathom the simplicity of truth. The mind is blind to truth.

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@Looking4Truth,

Quote:

We forever gain knowledge yet never come to the knowledge of truth. What is truth? Where can truth be found? When will we see truth? Why don't we see truth? What created truth and it's opposite? Where dId truth come from? How do we know?

All that I can share with you are my understandings, I could be wrong but truth comes from human constructs that make up the concepts of truth and reality.
everything that we know comes from our linguistic ability to logically string words together to make coherency.

Without our ability to do so there would be no way to observe reality as we do. not that we get reality correct but at least we do have some sort of tools to think about it because other forms of life do no seem to. Wink

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@reasoning logic,

Your absolutely right! You could be wrong Wink

. Yet, you know what you mean Smile

. Are our perceptions of reality truth? Obviously not, since we all have our own perceptions. We are perceiving more and more, and the more complex our thoughts go from reality, the further we get from truth. We see only what we know. As our ancestors said, "If the light (understanding) in you is darkness (complexity) how great is that darkness?" Our ancestors, although not understood, (Philosophical saying: Just because I don't know what you're saying, doesn't mean you don't know what you mean) knew what they were saying. Like they said, "We forever gain knowledge, but never come to the knowledge of truth". We go into the wrong direction. We're looking backwards into the complexity of knowledge of reality. Truth is behind our understanding. Truth is simple and that's why we don't see it. Our coherency is incoherent due to the "old wine". We're waiting for the "new wine" (Our ancestors speak of a spiritual wine as if it were what were what we dwell in).
You're right. At least we do have some sort of knowledge, although it's darkness, to see something that we don't understand.

You're not going to understand, at all, what I say next. I guess my knowledge (darkness) is to great to see Wink

. We didn't come from a big bang. We are headed to a big bang Laughing

. It's going to be AWESOME! I can't, but must, wait. Just be, wait, and see.

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@Looking4Truth,

Quote:

Your absolutely right! You could be wrong Wink. Yet, you know what you mean Smile. Are our perceptions of reality truth?

Well thank you for the complements but all that i have are my guesses because I doubt that I understand anything empirically. Smile

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@reasoning logic,

If you understand that we haven't reached understanding of truth, then you understand something. You just created something out of nothing! I'm anticipating the answer. Understanding the question comes before the answer. Your words helped create mine, and mine yours. Thanks.

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@Looking4Truth,

Quote:

You just created something out of nothing

Are you suggesting that we are creators or God like?

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@reasoning logic,

As our ancestors said, we were created in His image. We were created parallel to Him. "Know ye not that ye are gods?" "He is King of kings, Lord of lords."

What are we gods of? We are gods of ourselves. We are asleep within our temples (vessels).

We lie in darkness. Love not your life unto death. Wash your robe (flesh/temple/vessel) in the blood of the lamb. Witness and testify to be robed in righteousness. As within, so without.

I'm not a man of religion. All religions are deceived. They are not to blame. Satin, the accuser of the brethren, is the deceiver. Religions, theists, atheists, agnostics, they are only guilty of being deceived.

You do not see what I'm saying. I was shown something that words can't describe. I wouldn't blame anyone who thought I was crazy, confused, or dilusionel.

I've said to much but not enough. The best thing for me to say is patients.

Just be, wait, and see. That's all we can do.

If you want more, just ask for true eyes to see, ears to hear, and a pure heart. You won't know what exactally your asking for until you get it. You will always find what you seek. What are you looking for? I'm still looking. I'm finally looking, I should say.

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@Looking4Truth,

Quote:

I've said to much but not enough. The best thing for me to say is patients.

Just be, wait, and see. That's all we can do.

If you want more, just ask for true eyes to see, ears to hear, and a pure heart. You won't know what exactally your asking for until you get it. You will always find what you seek. What are you looking for? I'm still looking. I'm finally looking, I should say.

Look no further friend because you have found the the ultimate gift and that is the friendship of others who care about you. Razz

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@litewave,

Every human being has the ability to do something right or wrong. that is free will. I ned money right now. I choose to be broke for a while as opposed to stealing money. That is my decision. No one is forcing me to do otherwise. I make decisions and take responsibility for them, hence I have free will to do so.

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@genefog2,

Quote:

I ned money right now. I choose to be broke for a while as opposed to stealing money.

Thank you for not robing me and you need help just ask and I will see what I can do. Idea

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@reasoning logic,

Well tellya what, I wrote a screen play, set me up with about fifteen G's and I'll give you a role in it:) I need a hundred G's but fifteen will get you in.

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I find it hard to believe this thread has advanced beyond this exchange on pg 6

joefromchicago wrote:

If the only alternative to free will is determinism, and you reject determinism (at least in some cases), then you must accept free will. QED.

To which the original poster responded:

litewave wrote:

However, the alternative to determinism is not free will, just indeterminism. Under indeterminism your choices are not determined by your intentions, they are unintentional. That means you don't have control over your choices. I doubt anybody would regard such choices as produced by free will.

Indeterminism? Really? Unintentional acts are no less subject to cause and effect. Winner - Joe!

With the exception of having left out the words predestination and reprobation, this could easily be a religious conundrum. Must an all powerful, all knowing God of necessity see the eventuality of his creation before he acts? 'Omniscient' is the word some use to describe an entity bound by definition to have this characteristic.

I contend that an all powerful God is perfectly capable of not knowing in advance the outcome of his creation, much like you and I may be inclined not to read the final page of the whodunnit.

Surely one of God's greatest gifts.

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@neologist,

You wrote,

Quote:

...an all powerful God is perfectly capable of not knowing in advance the outcome of his creation...

Now, that's a mouth full;

Quote:

Surely one of God's greatest gifts.

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@cicerone imposter,

Maybe he has a direct line with God and knows better, give him the benefice of a doubt !... Wink

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Sorry if I didn't get my point across.

Might not be me, though.

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@litewave,

Yet what is reason? Is reason a human construct or a human passion? Or is it a part of that which makes us what we are. If it is such, then since it is but a part of that which determines us, it cannot be all that determines us. So then, what is reason?

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@Francis,

-Freedom: no? Our actions are determined either by external causes, whether by internal ideas in our brain. - Brabke-

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I think the question inherently assumes that Dualism is true (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind))

You can't assume a duelistic universe, and then ask if we have free will, because in some sense they are the same worldview.

I think a more interesting point is that humans are incapable of CREATING information ex nihlo (try imagining a new primary color, for example). Furthermore, we can only make decisions based on the information we have. The very concept of free will assumes we are able to make decisions COMPLETELY free of external forces, that our "soul" or whatever you want to call it is completely unhindered in any way by our physical existence. However, we already know for a fact that our decisions ability is limited by what we know, which can only be learned through our physical senses. So do we really have "free" will when it's so drastically limited by our bodies?

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@talktofiggy,

talktofiggy wrote:

You can't assume a duelistic universe,

I dunno. One of my ancestors shot Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Smile

I think they both acted on free will, but Hamilton may have felt pressured into it.

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Proof of nonexistence of free will

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