Proof of nonexistence of free will

@Night Ripper,

Try revolutionary theory.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Nah--don't bother.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Try revolutionary theory.

If there were a "first cause," then it would itself have no cause. Most people call it "God," quickly adding He acts in mysterious ways to account for His apparent randomness. Those who don't believe on Him don't have this problem: they can call that randomness by its proper name (while saving a lot of worthless intellectual work).

As for the idea that everything has a cause, causation would have to be instantaneous or it would take an eternity -- due to infinite regression -- which would make all interactions faster-than-light, hence is unacceptable.

Besides, as quantum physics puts uncertainty in the heart of nature itself, one must disprove quantum physics to be able to believe again in either a first cause or in everything having a cause, ad infinitum.

In other words: come on, guys.

1 Reply

@guigus,

The question is no longer about first cause; the fact that the universe and space exists is all that matters. Humans may never know how all this was "created," but we are only animals living on one planet with many limitations that includes physical, biological, and chronological, that happens to have life forms.

Human ability to explore outside of space doesn't exist; searching for its ends will "never" be accomplished. It will remain a mystery as long as life remains on this planet.

We can only peek at what's available close to home in this great expanse of infinity.

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@north,

You just get what I said upside down....damn how frustrating can this be...

...I said if it was the case of being a mix then no random was need to get a mix...but they imply real randomness so it is not the case they imply a mix but instead a random relation where in the end you can even get a non mix of elements in the information in "transit"...

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@Night Ripper,

So what ad infinitum if it may well be a self enclosed circle ?

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

So what ad infinitum if it may well be a self enclosed circle ?

If you mean a circle, then the difference between cause and effect simply vanishes: causes are effects and effects are causes. This is even worse than an infinite regression.

1 Reply

@guigus,

Yes that much is true...that is the fundamental idea of Unity that I posit.
I don´t see any warm in effects which can also be causes...and from there one can see why time is to be ultimately consider irrelevant...even "cause" itself is a convenient concept that we use at this point for the sake of sustaining a logical grip on the meaning of such complex correlations...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Yes that much is true...that is the fundamental idea of Unity that I posit.
I don´t see any warm in effects which can also be causes...and from there one can see why time is to be ultimately consider irrelevant...even "cause" itself is a convenient concept that we use at this point for the sake of sustaining a logical grip on the meaning of such complex correlations...

If something being either a cause or an effect is arbitrary, then the very idea of a cause loses its meaning. But since for you time itself is irrelevant, that's not much of a problem, is it? I just don't understand what makes you think anything you say can still be relevant in such a scenario.

1 Reply

@guigus,

OK Guigus, imagine that the ever forward arrow of time bends a little bit every segment you go through...like in a circle (the perfect form for the Greeks remember?) you end up with the beginning being justified by the end...a self justified system with no nothingness surrounding it.The system is itself everything and necessarily hard determined given no degrees of freedom beyond it... One uses the term Cause only to stablish the relational status of its constituents, or their ability to simulate the communication of information every bit forward you walk through it...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Yes that much is true...that is the fundamental idea of Unity that I posit.
I don´t see any warm in effects which can also be causes...and from there one can see why time is to be ultimately consider irrelevant...even "cause" itself is a convenient concept that we use at this point for the sake of sustaining a logical grip on the meaning of such complex correlations...

Anyway, this is an interesting demonstration of how people insisting that any cause must itself have a cause, who at first seem to cherish causes a lot, in the end reveal they don't give a damn about causes.

1 Reply

@guigus,

Not fair...the term is extremely useful and it is very hard to sustain a conversation with normal people without recurring to that very same pedagogical usefulness of it...after all we live with the persistent illusion of time and movement being true...CAUSE where means a correlation between events that share bits of information in such an arrangement that cause seams to be suggested as in a simulation...more, their relational status and similarity's in the sequences of forms which they present along the arrow of time proves a unified common nature where the term cause or correlation ultimately fails to be distinguishable if not for specific convenience on explaining it in a more tangible way...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

OK Guigus, imagine that the ever forward arrow of time bends a little bit every segment you go through...like in a circle (the perfect form for the Greeks remember?) you end up with the beginning being justified by the end...a self justified system with no nothingness surrounding it.The system is itself everything and necessarily hard determined given no degrees of freedom beyond it... One uses the term Cause only to stablish the relational status of its constituents, or their ability to simulate the communication of information every bit forward you walk through it...

One thing everybody agrees about causes and effects is that causes must precede effects, by which making the difference between them arbitrary eliminates the arrow of time, by making the flow of time itself arbitrary, so according to you we would see time flowing arbitrarily from the past to the future as well as from the future to the past, which I never saw happening in my entire life!

1 Reply

@guigus,

Not at all...it can continually go forward like in a circle that you will end up right where you started...imagine an ant going around a balloon forever...
You just need a geometrical arrangement between the forms in the frames bringing up a Cycling Pattern simulating cause, where the last form in the circle matches the geometry of the first in the circle in a hard determined non moving set...which I call everything in a discrete space/time background where every possibility is fulfilled in a sequence of combinations...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Not fair...the term is extremely useful and it is very hard to sustain a conversation with normal people without recurring to that very same pedagogical usefulness of it...after all we live with the persistent illusion of time and movement being true...CAUSE where means a correlation between events that share bits of information in such an arrangement that cause seams to be suggested as in a simulation...more, their relational status and similarity's in the sequences of forms which they present along the arrow of time proves a unified common nature where the term cause or correlation ultimately fails to be distinguishable if not for specific convenience on explaining it in a more tangible way...

Not only that: the concept of cause also helps people stay alive by convincing them not to jump off the top of a building or shoot themselves -- as it creates the arbitrary illusion that doing so would kill them.

1 Reply

@guigus,

But that´s the thing it would kill them...it is indistinguishable from true cause given the pattern of relation between the frozen frames of geometrical forms is hard determined...that´s what given the sequence we experience simulates rules of nature or The "PATTERN"...the sequence is done and cannot be undone or countered...The correlation is perfect to simulate cause all the way through the circle and back to the beginning where everything is to be repeated infinitely in the very same finite set...that´s why I use to talk about infinity being build upon quantity's and not upon quality´s which are frozenly pre-defined in the set...the causal movement forward in the circle is ingenuously geometrically assembled to simulate cause movement and infinity...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Not at all...it can continually go forward like in a circle that you will end up right where you started...

Unfortunately, you are not talking about a circle drawn on the floor, but rather about time, cause and effect: don't confuse you metaphors with our concepts.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

imagine an ant going around a balloon forever...

Again, don't confuse you metaphors with our concepts.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

You just need a geometrical arrangement between the forms in the frames bringing up a Cycling Pattern where the last form in the circle matches the geometry of the first in the circle in a hard determined non moving set...which I call everything in a discrete space/time background where every possibility is fulfilled in a sequence of combinations...

This has just one inconvenient: time has nowhere to come from, since geometry is static.

1 Reply

@guigus,

Oh man...you can do it in binary code with zeros and ones...you don´t even need true multidimensional geometry....2 dimensions for the sequence of zeros and ones suffices...time is just an effect along the progression in the frames where something slowly is simulated to change continually step by step... the pattern where cause seams to be simulated with X rules of nature...its not different from a film frame in your hands...you know its still although it seams it moves...

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Felipe;

Have you ever taken a nanosecond to notice that all that crap in your head, (which you dump here in this forum), all that crap hasn't resolved anything for you or for anybody else.

Doesn't that make you curious?

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@Dasein,

What is it there to be resolved, eh?
Have you ever seriously considered that you might be wrong in your model ?
...but more, you seam to suggest that my model is morally inferior to yours and yet you don´t even present an argument, an hint for it...
Crap ? Honestly you simply don't have the necessary IQ to follow what I'm at...You know what instantly pops into my mind about those advocates of permanent flux, the eternal change like you ? Anarchists who don't have a clue on what change means, sworn enemy´s of reason deeply entangled in the social French model which is the ruin of our University´s and young incompetent generations with 2 or 3 Masters on yoghurt thesis ...you people live always in the middle of paradoxes and duality's buried in moral claims...

4 Replies

Proof of nonexistence of free will

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