20
   

Obama made a terrible decision re Afghanistan

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 07:44 am
@msolga,
Actually it has nothing to do with tit for tat, but rather just protecting ourselves against further attacks. I am not saying it should all be militarily, in fact, I think the way they have it planned a good deal of it is not which is better than the policy of mainly air bombing with huge cost to innocent lives.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 07:58 am
@anton,
So you are saying that we should just (the US) should just sit back and take what happened on 9/11 and what may happen again because we have had people in charge who have supported Israel more so than Palestine and not defend ourselves against further attacks? That is crazy and no country should be expected to do so.

I agree however, that we should be a whole lot more even handed and stay out of the affairs of the middle east.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 08:47 am
I still do not believe that the US deserved to have over 3000 people killed and should just lie back and take it, nor do I think we should just allow ourselves to be killed to satisfy bin laden's version of the history of events, I did find the orginal Fatwa with the stated reasons for the attack. (if the translation is correct) This was in the Fatwa of 1998.

Quote:
So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam [not further identified] in his books, where he said "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.


source

First of all, Saddam invaded Kuwait and did other atrocities which had to be addressed; he posed a real threat which had to be monitored. I don't know anything about Saudi Arabia and those other matters and he hardly mentions the main issue of Israel and Palestine.

In any event, we can hardly let ourselves be "annihilated" in return to satisfy bin laden version of events. Also, for whatever reason, most of our military did leave Saudi Arabia; we are leaving Iraq in large part and have plans to leave Afghanistan at some point. I am hopeful at some point; the US will more even handed with aid and support to Israel and Palestine. Some may look at these events as appeasement, some may think it is too little too late, but perhaps they are just the right things to do in the right measure or maybe I don't know what in the world I am talking about.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 10:49 am
@revel,
revel, I believe your imagination is working overtime like most conservatives who use fear to get what they want. You wrote:
Quote:
In any event, we can hardly let ourselves be "annihilated" in return to satisfy bin laden version of events.


What are the chances such an occurrence will happen in the world of today where all international public transportation is restricted by passports and VISAs? Nobody can even bring a bottle of water through security.

Maybe, you can use your imagination to explain to us how bin Laden/Taliban will "annihilate" us?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 04:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Nobody can even bring a bottle of water through security.
In a long line of stupid statements that takes the cake. Never heard of drugs ? Sheltered life in Macademia is it ? Never heard of Pakistan ? The nation that has a nuclear weapon ?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 04:17 pm
@Ionus,
That's because you have never traveled by air or ship.
anton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 10:59 pm
@Ionus,
I was born in the early 30's and lived through the Blitz but you wouldn't know what that was.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 11:03 pm
@anton,
A dance craze ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 11:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Ah ! That explains it !
0 Replies
 
anton
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 11:07 pm
@H2O MAN,
Probably for the same reason the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour, the US sanctions against Japan made life impossible; now the US and Israel is making life impossible for the Palestinians.
America is a land of self-serving bullies but the US excess and greed that caused the current financial problems will prove to be the straw that broke the Camel's back.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 01:40 am
@revel,
Quote:
Actually it has nothing to do with tit for tat, but rather just protecting ourselves against further attacks. I am not saying it should all be militarily, in fact, I think the way they have it planned a good deal of it is not which is better than the policy of mainly air bombing with huge cost to innocent lives.


But the way that the retaliation for 9/11 has actually been done, revel, is rather like knowing that a serious, crazy killer is at large. And that the killer could well be living within a particular community. Then destroying the hell out of that community, on the odd chance that the crazy killer might be destroyed & eliminated. (Maybe that community did not exactly welcome the presence of the crazy killer.) All that's been achieved is creating even more hostility toward the US & its allies (in Iraq, Afghanistan), which maybe hadn't existed before, to quite this extent. And it hasn't solved the problem (for the US) at all.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:44 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

... And it hasn't solved the problem (for the US) at all.


It has helped prevent another successful attack on the lower 48.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:55 am
@H2O MAN,
You'll have to explain that, H20 .. how/why this is a good thing.

I have no idea of what the lower 48 is.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:15 am
@msolga,
OK, in the absence of an answer, I did a Google search:
Quote:
The term contiguous United States refers to the 48 U.S. states located on the North American continent south of the U.S. border with Canada, plus the District of Columbia. The term excludes the states of Alaska and Hawaii, and all off-shore U.S. territories and possessions, such as Puerto Rico. ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiguous_United_States

You have some reliably sourced information which has led you to believe that an attack on these 48 states was imminent? It news to me.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:26 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:



You have some reliably sourced information which has led you to believe that an attack on these 48 states was imminent? It news to me.


Post 9/11 attacks on the lower 48 (aka CONUS) have been detected and stopped.
PrezBO mentioned this in his latest AFG surge speech. The enemy is still trying to attack the states.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:49 am
@H2O MAN,
I think that's pretty much the line of most governments attempting to justify ongoing involvement of their troops in Afghanistan. Something along the lines of: "We have to fight the enemy there (in Afghanistan) to stop terrorism reaching here. (insert name of country)
Thing is, fewer & fewer people are buying this line of argument.
Maybe it works the other way around? Maybe the more these unjustifiable conflicts continue, the more crazy terrorists are created?

Interesting to see you supporting President Obama on this one.
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:56 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:



Interesting to see you supporting President Obama on this one.


PrezBO is doing what the previous administration told him he needed to do.
Unfortunately, PrezBO dragged his feet and he's going about his job in a childish manner.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:59 am
@H2O MAN,
You know, I can't take much of you say seriously when you your president "PrezBO". It's really rather silly.

msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 04:06 am
@msolga,
...When you call your president ....., I meant to say.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 04:07 am
@msolga,
I know what you meant to type and there is nothing silly or derogatory about the word "PrezBO".
Do you understand what "PrezBO" means?
 

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