4
   

Even some scientists give lip service to fairy tales.

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:38 am
@farmerman,
I have a text copy. Rather plain reading. Yes there are differences and there are multiple versions, but to say the New Testament is...
Quote:
(Setanta said) an historical source is ludicrous. They are riddled with historical bullshit and internal contradictions.
when there is much to be gained from earlier texts is rubbish.

Quote:
(farmerman said ) Also, there were several scrolls at the cave sites that were made of copper "foil".
Yes, and there is a lot of debate about them. One historian is out on a limb and says they are from Egypt at the time of Akhen-Aton. Some think they are a map to a treasure that still exists but this seems unlikely. Also the amount mentioned in them is ridiculously high..probably an error of ten occured and I have read one explantion as to how this might have occured that seems reasonable.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:41 am
@Intrepid,
Quote:
Now THAT was funny. If you only knew.
Great. I am funny and I have no idea why. But we do agree I have a sense of humuor, right ? right ? Intrepid ? right ? We agree ?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:43 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Bills a self proclaimed genius doncha know?lol


LOL right back to you idiots.........
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:46 am
@Ionus,
What parts of the NEw TEstament do you consider as forensically substantial?

So you deny that the copper rolls were even part of the Qumran scrolls? on what basis is that made? they were found Bound and sealed together with other masses of scrolls. The fact that they could have been part pof essene submissions from Egypt is a show stopper for you? Then how do you rectify the century and more differences among all the gospels and how the JEsus story just seems to grow mor outrageous with each passing 50 year period.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:58 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
so you deny that the copper rolls were even part of the Qumran scrolls? on what basis is that made?
Can you show me where I said something that made you think that ?
Quote:
The fact that they could have been part pof essene submissions from Egypt is a show stopper for you?
I made a simple comment. You can exagerate if you want.
Quote:
how the JEsus story just seems to grow mor outrageous with each passing 50 year period.
Different Gospels were written for different audiences. They do not grow more outrageous. They emphasise different apsects.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 12:06 pm
@Ionus,
In response to your several consecutive one-liner posts:

You are the apparently desperate fool who must believe in the "gospels," i've just pointed out how much internal contradiction is involved, and how many historical gaffes they include. I see that rather than take what i've written point by point, you just resort to calling names. I am not among the legion--and their numbers once were legion--of those who did not believe that Pilate existed, because there was no evidence for his existence outside scripture, other than Tacitus, and extant copies of Tacitus were already know to have been willfully corrupted by interpolation. Once again, you don't address the topic, you just call names. As for sneers, you were the one who began all of that, so don't piss your pants and whine if you get served in the manner you have attempted to serve others.

Your remark about the Old Testament is meaningless, a non sequitur, given that i've made no comments on the Old Testament.

As for being an historical source, you're the one who claims that the gospels are an historical source, and when i've pointed out to you a flagrant internal contradiction, the error about Pilate's office (he was a prefect, not a procurator) and the phony reference to a "census" by Augustus, your response has been to call names, and has not been to address the criticisms. You are the one who claims that Nero blamed the fire at Rome on the Christians, but you don't provide a source--and i did ask you for sources. Instead, you have called names.

You can read here a discussion at Answers-dot-com on the interpolation in Tacitus, who can be your only source (if you are even bothering to claim you have a source) for the incident of Nero blaming the Christians for the fire at Rome. Note the cogent observation that even the interpolated passage in Tacitus does not claim that the putative Jesus existed, only that there was such a cult.

Furthermore, several of the patristic scholars of the early church engaged in defenses of their cult and the historical existence of the putative Jesus (i've already mentioned Origen), and yet they don't mention the alleged passage in Josephus. Even Eusebius when discussing the alleged passage in Josephus refers to it appearing before the mention of Pilate, while modern versions of Josephus which include this alleged passage place it after the mention of Pilate.

Don't get on your high horse with me about historical authority, you have provided none.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 01:42 pm
Hey, thanx guys -- Ionus, Setanta, farmerman, BillRM et al. -- for providing a wonderful morning's entertainment today. I haven't laughed this hard since the debacle of the balloon boy. You guys are great. Really. Please keep up the good work.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 01:45 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Hey, thanx guys -- Ionus, Setanta, farmerman, BillRM et al. -- for providing a wonderful morning's entertainment today. I haven't laughed this hard since the debacle of the balloon boy. You guys are great. Really. Please keep up the good work.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My main aim and desire in life is to entertain you and I am happy I for one seem to be doing so.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 01:53 pm
Louis Feldman, holding a degree in philology from Harvard University, is an expert in Hellenistic culture and an expert on the topic of Flavius Josephus, and is and has been since 1956 a professor at Yeshiva University. Writing in 1989, Feldman lists 87 articles and books written in the period 1937-1980 on the subject of the passage in Josephus, and comments that "the overwhelming majority" question the authenticity of the passage in part or in whole.

Origen, writing circa 240 CE, comments that Josephus does not believe that the putative Jesus was the Messiah. This contradicts the Eusebian version of the Testimonium. It is for this reason that most reputable scholars consider the Testimonium to be an interpolation, and, given that the Eusebian version does not appear until the early 4th century, consider either Eusebius or Pamphilus to have been the author of the interpolation. Feldman, writing in 1989 in an article entitled "A Selective Critical Bibliography of Josephus," states "no fewer than eleven church fathers prior to or contemporary with Eusebius cite various passages from Josephus (including the Antiquities) but not the Testimonium". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but Origen and almost all early church scholars were engaged in constant debate, usually with Jewish scholars, for the historicity of the putative Jesus, and yet they remain silent on the subject of a justification from Flavius Josephus. In the case of Origen specifically, we have a surviving written record of his debate with Celsus on the historicity of the cult and of the putative Jesus, and yet Origen, whose other writings clearly demonstrate that he had read Flavius Josephus, does not cite him as a source.

Personally, i figure it is about a 50-50 shot whether or not the putative Jesus actually existed. There is, however, no reliable historical basis upon which to claim he did.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 05:06 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
i've just pointed out how much internal contradiction is involved, and how many historical gaffes they include.
But not in the historians you have quoted ? I would fail a first year undergrad student for being that stupid. All those historians who have poured over the Gospels and determined volumes from them, they werent as clever as you were they ? But then, who is ?
Quote:
you were the one who began all of that, so don't piss your pants and whine if you get served in the manner you have attempted to serve others.
You have a very self serving memory. Remember when.....
http://able2know.org/topic/138621-5#post-3830844 And why ? Because I asked you if you care to retract. You know you can get hormone replacement therapy if that helps, old man. As for pissing my pants...I wish you were here.
Quote:
you just call names
Dont piss your pants old man.
Quote:
a non sequitur
Unbelievable !! Do you read that dribble you write ?
Quote:
and yet they don't mention the alleged passage in Josephus
Will you be sueing them ? Alleged ?
Your argument is full of self serving bullshit. If you dont think the Christians were blamed by Nero, what did happen ? If Jesus didnt exist, put together a plausible version of who fabricated him and why.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 05:08 pm
@Merry Andrew,
Thanks Merry....I try...
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 05:53 pm
@Ionus,
If Jesus didnt exist, put together a plausible version of who fabricated him and why.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Being in the leadership of a cult is and alway had been the path of wine, women and power and a few coins.

See the history of the Mormons and Scientology as two fairly recent examples of this.

Or even the little cults such as the one Manson had going or Jim Jones or David Koresh for that matter.

History is full of people who had created cults out of thin air for their own benefits.

As to who came up with the Jesus cult well somethings can be lost in two thousands years but the reason why is clear.












Setanta
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 06:59 pm
@Ionus,
You wouldn't make it out of high school history. I've pointed out the contradictions and historical absurdities, and you have not addressed them. You've only resorted to insult. One suspects that's all that's left to you, and that you can't answer the objections.

There is no reason for me to retract anything. The Flavius Josephus passage is considered suspect by the majority of reputable scholars--in the words of Professor Feldman, a specialist on Josephus, the "overwhelming majority." My original point is that there is no reliable historical evidence for the existence of the putative Jesus. You have provided none. Constantly ranting about Josephus doesn't make your case, because the majority of reputable scholars consider the passage suspect. Again, you descend into personal invective rather than addressing the objections i have advanced to the Josephus passage.

Referring to the Old Testament was definitely a non sequitur, because it has nothing to do with establishing the historicity of the putative Jesus and i had never made any claims with regard to the Old Testament. Try to keep up. Again, rather than answer the point directly, you cut up what i wrote, and post more drivel of a personal, insulting character.

The city caught fire, as cities built with so much wood, and with so many people living cheek by jowl will do. Romans within the city were taxed by hearths, so as the Russians were to do under the Romanovs with a similar taxation systems, they packed as many people into an apartment as they could manage. It was a disaster waiting to happen, and in 64 CE, it happened. That there was a fire is not evidence that anyone set it, so there is no reason why i should be obliged to fix any "blame." I see that you once again fail to meet the challenge of providing any evidence for your claim. Similar fires took place five years later in 69 CE, and again in 80 CE. With so many people living close-packed in wooden structures, it was inevitable. Suetonius, who was a near contemporary of the event, states that Nero did not attempt to fix any blame for the fire; he also specifically states that no one was persecuted for the fire. You c0ntinue to fail to support your claim, yet sneer at me about being some sort of oracle.

I have not stated that putative Jesus did not exist. I have simply pointed out that there is no reliable historical evidence. I have pointed out that your claims are bullshit, and you have failed to support them, and only indulged in personal invective. It's a pretty pathetic performance.
Intrepid
 
  1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 07:48 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

If Jesus didnt exist, put together a plausible version of who fabricated him and why.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Being in the leadership of a cult is and alway had been the path of wine, women and power and a few coins.

See the history of the Mormons and Scientology as two fairly recent examples of this.

Or even the little cults such as the one Manson had going or Jim Jones or David Koresh for that matter.

History is full of people who had created cults out of thin air for their own benefits.

As to who came up with the Jesus cult well somethings can be lost in two thousands years but the reason why is clear.




This is truly laughable. Even coming from you. Clear to you maybe. Laughing Laughing
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 09:03 pm
@Setanta,
How can you have the stupidity to lecture me on name calling when you started it because someone dared to ask you if you wanted to retract a statement? Are we supposed to live in awe of your colossus ? Don’t piss your pants in the meantime, old man. You are a frightened hypocrite desperately clinging to limited knowledge. The classic case of why people should not be educated beyond their intelligence.

Good ol’ Professor Feldman. Not human..never wrong and cant be wrong. Says things like the “overwhelming majority agree with me”.

Quote:
because the majority of reputable scholars consider the passage suspect
Reputable by you and Feldy because they agree with you. Who says the majority ? The Lemming Society ?

Quote:
You have provided none.
Hey, stupid, get with the program…what have you been arguing against if I provided none. Even you realised that at one stage ...
Quote:
the objections i have advanced to the Josephus passage

It is simply you are in shock that someone doesn’t believe you. The great YOU. How dare they…..

I referred to the Old Testament because you seem to think that was the end of scholarship on the Bible. That it has historical accuracy but the New Testament has none. As for a non sequitur, the Romanovs ? Be serious. They may sound similar to Romans but there are a lot of differences.

Quote:
so there is no reason why i should be obliged to fix any "blame."
Historians close to the time talked about blame, from Nero to Christians. If it wasn’t deliberate, why did it restart ?

I cant believe you talk about the bias of historians without seeing your own or that of those you quote. Read your own words for the amount of colour added, the self back slapping and use of extraneous words to boost your argument.

Why was Josephus amended to back date Christianity ?

What conspiracy created Jesus if he did not exist ?

When did Christians first exist if not during the start of the Christian era ?

You are about as useful as a cloth cock. I can only hope for the sake of the human species that you and Feldy are homosexual. God help us if stupidity is allowed to breed. Apologize for your insulting me first and the insults will stop.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 09:15 pm
@Ionus,
No, you started the personal abuse. Professor Feldman didn't say that the overwhelming majority agree with him, he didn't express an opinion on the subject. This the problem in all of your pathetic arguments. Professor Feldman said that in 87 publications in the period 1937-1980, the overwhelming majority doubted all or some parts of the Testimonium, and he did not venture his own opinion on the subject. You have the same seeming inability to understand English when you read what i have written. I have at no time stated that Jesus did not exist. I simply stated that there is no reliable evidence for his existence. You have provided none.

I'm not shocked that you don't believe me, and coming to the point where i'm not surprised that you defend your cherished sacred cows with personal vituperation and no evidence at all. I made no comment on the scholarship of the Bible, i simply commented that the "gospels" cannot be considered to be reliable historical sources.

No historians close to the time of 64 CE fire in Rome support a conclusion that the Christians were responsible and that Nero persecuted them. Suetonius, who was born shortly after the fire, is the closest contemporary source, and he denies that Nero fixed any blame, and he denied that there was any persecution. You have, once again, made statements from authority, but in providing no sources, not even naming any one of these alleged historians or their works, you beggar the notion that you have any authority.

Personal invective seems to be your only stock in trade in this discussion. There is no reason to respond further to you unless and until you provide sources for what otherwise are apparently rants.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 09:38 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
No, you started the personal abuse.
Unbelievable ! The delusions you must live under...Read it in your own words...
http://able2know.org/topic/138621-5#post-3830844

Quote:
he did not venture his own opinion on the subject
Either he agrees with me or your supposed "overwhelming majority". Assuming you only quote from references you believe support you, like you always do rather than debate, then he has effectively stated his opinion.

Quote:
You have provided none.
Again with that ? Are you a rote learner ?

Quote:
While were at it, to claim that the "gospels" are an historical source is ludicrous. They are riddled with historical bullshit and internal contradictions.
The cities, the people, the language, none of this is historical ? Scholarship applies to the Old but not the New Testament ?

Quote:
you defend your cherished sacred cows with personal vituperation
When you wrote that did you have yourself in mind or me ?

You argue that the historians are inaccurate and they support your view...which is it or are you shooting yourself in the foot and are too stupid to know it ?

Why was Josephus amended to back date Christianity ?

What conspiracy created Jesus if he did not exist ?

When did Christians first exist if not during the start of the Christian era ?

Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 10:56 pm
@Ionus,
Jeeze, you're incredibly delusional. There was no personal reflection, no invective in that post which you have now twice cited and linked.

As for Professor Feldman, his passage was from a article on a Josephus bibliography, so what he "believes" or doesn't "believe" with regard to a single passage of Josephus is not relevant. You'd have to search elsewhere to find out if he has an opinion. Once again, you seem not to have very good reading comprehension skills. It's not "my" overwhelming majority. In his bibliographic article on Josephus, Dr. Feldman notes that in 87 published works between 1937 and 1980, the overwhelming majority (his descriptor, not mine) discount either part or all of the disputed passage.

It is this lack of precision on your part which shows that you have little to no grasp of historiography. So, for example, if i point out that there is no reliable historical evidence for the existence of the putative Jesus, that is not a statement of my opinion on the subject, something which you don't seem to understand. There is no historical evidence for the existence of Homer, other than the existence of the two epic poems attributed to him, and no sources for those any earlier than 600 years after the events described in the poems. But that is hardly relevant, because the poems do exist, and that is known. In the case of your boy Jesus, there is no reliable historical evidence that he ever existed. That is all i have been saying. What is important, though, is the delusions associated with the claim that he existed, among which your personal delusions of the subject figure among the more drab and unimaginative.

I continue to point out that you have provided no evidence for your position because that, combined with your reliance on personal invective, are indicative of the poverty of your position. You mentioned an apology earlier--i don't care if you apologize, and i haven't even inferentially suggested that you should. In fact, the longer you keep this up, the more foolish your position appears.

I have not at any time argued that any group of historians, or any particular historian is inaccurate. My comments have been directed at the gospels, which no reasonable scholar considers to be history, and i have specifically mentioned Eusebius. It is likely, although it can never be known to a certainty, that if the Josephus passage is spurious, as it very likely is, then Pamphilus or Eusebius is responsible. Eusebius has long been called the father of church history--if he is responsible for the Josephus interpolation, then yes, i would argue that he is inaccurate--in fact, the best term would be simply to call him a liar.

I have not stated nor implied that "Josephus was amended to back date Christianity," so there is no reason for me to answer that foolishness.

I have not alleged that Jesus was "created" by any conspiracy, and have not, in fact claimed that he didn't exist. I have already clearly stated my position on the matter, but you were either in such haste to vilify me that you missed it, or your reading comprehension skills let you down when you got to that sentence.

I did not offer an opinion about when Christians first existed. I certainly did not state that they didn't exist until a certain point after the beginning of what was long referred to as the Christian era. I merely pointed out that the term Christian was not in use (it does not appear elsewhere than the alleged passage of Josephus and certainly not in non-Christian sources until the second century) at the time that Josephus wrote, that not even Christians called themselves Christians then. It is good inferential textual evidence that the passage in Josephus is interpolation, a fraud perpetrated at some point in the late third or early fourth century.

That's an impressive line of straw men you erected there--but it isn't much else. You continue to fail to provide any evidence for your claims. I don't expect now that you ever will.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 12:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
There was no personal reflection, no invective in that post which you have now twice cited and linked.
And of course I believe you despite the evidence ...
Quote:
you just make yourself look a fool when you cannot even get a basic fact like that out
This is personal reflection
Quote:
and if you know anything about the history of Christian scripture, that name will be significant to you
This is condescending
Quote:
Care to retract your bullshit?
This is invective
But you didnt say any of that did you ? Are you senile...maybe you should take your medication and have a good lie down.

So we can agree Feldy is not an expert. His opinion is irrelevant. Kindly stop quoteing the fool then.

Quote:
(I said) Josephus was amended to back date Christianity

Quote:
(you said) In fact, most reputable scholars suspect that Eusebius himself was the author of the interpolation. And yes, Holmes, the evidence is excellent that the Josephus passage is an interpolation--a forgery. It's hardly my fault if you are so pig ignorant on this subject that you didn't know that.
AND
I have not stated nor implied that "Josephus was amended to back date Christianity,"
That sure sounds like Josephus was amended to back date Christianity to me. But no one is as clever as you, are they....

I said :
Quote:
Apologize for your insulting me first and the insults will stop.

But you cant read. Somehow you got it wrong. Has this ever happened before, Oh great one ? You think.....
Quote:
You mentioned an apology earlier--i don't care if you apologize, and i haven't even inferentially suggested that you should.

What in God's name is wrong with you....
Quote:
pointed out that the term Christian was not in use

You put so much faith in your knowing everything it is embarrassing. You know this how ? Because one early source survived and called them Christians but you don’t believe it. Would you read how pathetic that is ? The Hebrew word Messiah translates to Christos in Greek. So what did Christians call themselves ?

Why was Josephus amended to back date Christianity ? This question is a logical result of your whole argument. Without a cause, why would someone do it ?

What conspiracy created Jesus if he did not exist ? Your argument is simple. No one can prove Jesus existed, all the evidence has been fabricated. Existence is a choice of two possibilities. Either someone existed or they didnt. Assuming you are right, then there has been one hell of a conspiracy. Assuming you are wrong, then there is a better chance that early references to Christians are just that...

When did Christians first exist if not during the start of the Christian era ?

You seem to think that existence is a grey area, they might have been, they might not have been...
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 04:22 am
@Intrepid,
This is truly laughable. Even coming from you. Clear to you maybe.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clear to anyone who can think and I see that would leave you out!
 

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