Even some scientists give lip service to fairy tales.

@rosborne979,

Quote:

M-Branes are still pure speculation. Even String Theory looks solid in comparison and its still considered potentially untestable (and therefor invalid scientifically).

Correct. But the problem is in terminology. For example : distance and time are two measurements of the same reality. If it took no time to go between two points, then distance is meaningless. If there is no distance between points, then time is meaningless. Similarly, the further you move from a point the more your time is different. So distance and time are measurements of the same effect. Two dimensions for one plane (M-Brane).

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

I agree. Evolution in the broader meaning then just Biology, is responsible for the universe we see. But if time means nothing to God, why is it impossible for a Creator to have started the Big Bang?

It's not impossible. But there's just no reason to think that it's necessary, especially since adding "god" to the equation merely adds a layer of improbability (which conflicts with Occam's razor), and makes it less likely rather than more likely.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

But there's just no reason to think that it's necessary

I have other reasons that support the concept of an impersonal God. These are best left for another thread.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
But there's just no reason to think that it's necessary
I have other reasons that support the concept of an impersonal God. These are best left for another thread.

I'll look for the other thread when you get it started.

I don't think we've had any Deists or Pantheists argue their case for an impersonal deity in the workings of things before.

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@Ionus,

It should also be valued for its moral instructions rather than the Ten Commandments and their supporting laws, although by themselves the Commandments are quite reasonable.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Let see morals and the bible,

kill gays
kill children who talk back to parents
kill anyone who work on a Sunday
kill anyone who does not share your god

Somehow morals and the bible does not go together in any way or in any manner.

Oh Moses order the large scale killings of his own people after he brought the commandments down from the mountain.

Good old Moses also order every man women and children of another tribe kill except for the virgin young women.

Had you read the Bible Ionus?

1 Reply

@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
M-Branes are still pure speculation. Even String Theory looks solid in comparison and its still considered potentially untestable (and therefor invalid scientifically).
Correct. But the problem is in terminology.

Actually, I think the problem is that to argue that M-Branes are a root cause for the apparent increase in complexity that we see in our Universe isn't really different from assigning it to a supernatural cause.

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@rosborne979,

I was tempted to post a guess as to why you thought that, but it would be more sensible to ask you to expand on it, if you please...

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@BillRM,

The part of the Law given to Moses that you critise was based on equality and was far more reasonable than the Laws it replaced. Moses was also a political leader and should be viewed in that light, rather than a religious leader. His killing of the Midianites, a people who had previously given him shelter, is the merging of two stories.

If you are quoting from Deuteronomy, I think you should know that was fabricated by Priests towards the end of the First Temple Period.

Quote:

Had you read the Bible Ionus?

Sarcasm, William ? Yes I have and I understood what I read. Did you ?

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:

Correct. But the problem is in terminology. For example : distance and time are two measurements of the same reality. If it took no time to go between two points, then distance is meaningless. If there is no distance between points, then time is meaningless. Similarly, the further you move from a point the more your time is different. So distance and time are measurements of the same effect. Two dimensions for one plane (M-Brane).

Were you trying to make a point here? If so, what?

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

I was tempted to post a guess as to why you thought that, but it would be more sensible to ask you to expand on it, if you please...

It's because both suppositions are "beyond nature". M-Branes are by definition, outside of our Universe and our reality, just like other supernatural things. We have no evidence for M-Branes and no way to test for them.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

We have no evidence for M-Branes and no way to test for them.

However, we can mathematically describe them in terms of topology and physical propwrties.

SO that with gods. (I did see that cartoon with the two scientists commenting over an equation on a blackboard. One of them had derived an equation segment that stated "AND THEN A MIRACLE HAPPENS"

to which the otherscientist says, "Perhaps you could be moree explicit here"

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http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/then-a-miracle-happens.gif

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@Setanta,

yeh that one . hee hee.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Quote:
We have no evidence for M-Branes and no way to test for them.
However, we can mathematically describe them in terms of topology and physical propwrties.

I don't believe that's entirely correct, because the topologies and properties are being extrapolated from our Universe and assumed to be relevant outside our Universe, when in fact we have no way of knowing that.

So what M-Brane theory is really doing is mathematically describing a possible interaction of hypothetical structures within a theoretical dimensionality which might possibly produce a pocket of collapsed dimensions which might be some type of isolated "Universe". I'm skeptical of theories which are couched in scientific/mathematical terminology, but which explain nothing. They remind me of Intelligent Design.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

M-Branes are by definition, outside of our Universe and our reality

Most of the quantum universe is outside our reality, the same as the galactic universe. Theories abound in these areas, and many have become accepted but are not provable, demonstrable or replicable and never will be fact. Science is increasingly leaving this universe and entering the realm of philosophy/religion but taking with it the baggage that should have been left here.

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@rosborne979,

How many dimensions outside of our universe can there be?

I think it's intellectual masterbation, but good for science fiction.

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@rosborne979,

The footing for M branes is just as based upon some evidence as is the Big Bang. Ever since the particle accelerators have been describing further smaller particles as sub structures of matter, the basies for all this had been laid. Recall the three (now four) flavors of quarks. Each had been sensed by particle accelerators and how they fit within a larger framework is where much of this ":mathterbation" is going.
Topology of the quark (up, down, charm and weird) are merely particle physicists attempts at conjoining the search for weak forces.
Im not a big fan but to relegate it purely to the "philosophical" is not correct. Much heavy math has gone into this, all of which has been evidence based at the outset(Where its gone beyond may be a stretch but its firmly grounded on real physics). We can not yet describe the structure of spacetime from a bottom up standpoint, but, like some of the flooky theorems that Big Bang has sired, M theory is just work in theoretical physics and includes the searches for the graviton or the Higgs boson.

I dislike when people throw up their hands and disabuse mathterbatory language as a reason to invoke a deity and deny the strides made in particle physics as much as I reject the views of Creationism and IDjicy.

Just because its difficult and we dont get it, dont mean its not worth a looksee.
.

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@farmerman,

farmerman, Sorry for the insult about "intellectual masterbation" about M branes. It's way beyond my brain capacity to understand physics at that level (or any level), and made comments about a subject that's way beyond my ability to comprehend.

Even trying to comprehend the big bang theory is a struggle, so I place it on the outer limits of my grey matter.

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@cicerone imposter,

Dont worry, I feel the same and Ive had the pleasure of listening to some of the guys at Princeton give seminars on the subject. Sometimes I feel that someone will jump up and scream "Gotcha, we just made all this **** up for SNL"

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Recall the three (now four) flavors of quarks.

Actually, six.

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Even some scientists give lip service to fairy tales.

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