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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/05/opinion/05krugman.html?_r=2&ref=opinion

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Type: Discussion • Score: 10 • Views: 2,521 • Replies: 35

[+6] - McGentrix - 10/06/2009Well, speaking just for me, I am a bit embarrassed for my party when I see such juvenile behavior. I have to remind myself that they are the fringe and keep going. Such things as clapping when...
[+4] - roger - 10/05/2009[quote] Snip â��Cheers eruptedâ�� at the headquarters of the conservative Weekly Standard, according to a blog post by a member of the magazineâ��s staff, with the headline...
[+4] - FreeDuck - 10/06/2009[quote="McGentrix"] Well, speaking just for me, I am a bit embarrassed for my party when I see such juvenile behavior. I have to remind myself that they are the fringe and keep going....
[+3] - Merry Andrew - 10/05/2009George, I generally respect your opinions, but methinks thou doest protest too much. Much of what you say amounts to no more than an [i]apologia pro culpa [/i] for the Republicans.
[+3] - roger - 10/06/2009I think this is where the whole "We won" and "You lose" thing started. It's kind of hard to frame policy making in these terms and not expect them to come back and haunt you....
[+3] - FreeDuck - 10/06/2009[quote="georgeob1"] Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die. Brueaucrats last...
[+3] - sozobe - 10/06/2009Yeah, I was one of thumbs-uppers on that one.

strange title for a thread, but hey...

liked the article.

Quote:

Snip “Cheers erupted” at the headquarters of the conservative Weekly Standard, according to a blog post by a member of the magazine’s staff, with the headline “Obama loses! Obama loses!” Rush Limbaugh declared himself “gleeful.” “World Rejects Obama,” gloated the Drudge Report. And so on.

So what did we learn from this moment? For one thing, we learned that the modern conservative movement, which dominates the modern Republican Party, has the emotional maturity of a bratty 13-year-old.

But more important, the episode illustrated an essential truth about the state of American politics: at this point, the guiding principle of one of our nation’s two great political parties is spite pure and simple. If Republicans think something might be good for the president, they’re against it " whether or not it’s good for America. Snip

An infantile reaction, and there's more than a trace of truth in the third paragraph, but I think it's also true that Obama puts his forth his positions in terms of winning and losing. I'm not a bit sure that either party is highly concerned for the good of the country.

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Okay, then "Arguments, anyone"

1 Reply

@roger,

no thanks, i'm trying to quit...

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

'Member how many times BPB swore off politics?

1 Reply

@roger,

i think his doc made him quit in the end.

(don't mention hillary to him yet)

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@Merry Andrew,

Predictable stuff from Krugman: deceptive too.

While it is true that some Republicans have used the argument that various of the Democrat proposals would significantly reduce Medicare benefits, that is certainly not and has never been the central theme of Republican opposition to the various versions of Obamacare - though Krugman bases his whole argument on that proposition - namely that Republicans are opposing a "public good" (government managed health care) using a central argument that is fundamentally contrary to their underlying beliefs.

The key Republican arguments have instead centered on the folly of adding to already out of control entitlements in the midst of a major recession and thereby adding to the already wasteful (and only marginally effective) stimulus program which will burden our economy with debt for years. Other central arguments have addressed the side effects of government management; ranging from the inevitable squeezing out of private options if a government subsidized & managed plan in put into the program (government unilaterally sets its payment rates and uses its market power to simply transfer provider costs to private consumers), to the inevitable side effects of government management - brueaucratic rationing of care and disincentives for investment, innovation and quality patient care.

Frankly it was President Obama's disingenuous (and I suspect thoughtless) assurances that he could cut $500 Billion over 10 or so years from Medicare without ANY degredation to benefits that ignited this issue. Obama's bland and deceitful assurances on this fatuous point demanded a rebuttal - and he got it.

This, of course was in addition to the president's other rhetorical deceptions. Throughtout the campaign he continuously offered voters vague assurances about what his "Plan" would and wouldn't do - including his opposition to a "public option". He continued this rhetoric after he took office, while he delegated the "Plan" to the Congress which produced several versions, none of which lived up to the still repeated assurances of "his (nonexistant) Plan". Yet the rhetorical assurances continue.....

Krugman is simply using his usual devices - misrepresenting the opposition with an obviously flawed and deceptive argument and then knocking down his own creation and announcing .... victory. The lead in about the supposed cheering after ther IOC announcement was cute though. (I suspect the true believing imbibers of the wonderfulness-of-Obama Kool Aid just couldn't deal with the observation that the magic didn't work... and isn't working so well in other areas either.)

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@roger,

Quote:

I'm not a bit sure that either party is highly concerned for the good of the country.

both parties are run by the fringe, who are not interested in working with the other side, who care more about their political games than they do about the country. Both parties have outlived their usefulness, in America you "do it right or you get eliminated" (Gordon Gecko). America will not be on the road to recovery until we fix Washington, which will include dispatching both the DEMS and the GOP.

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@georgeob1,

George, I generally respect your opinions, but methinks thou doest protest too much. Much of what you say amounts to no more than an apologia pro culpa for the Republicans.

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@Merry Andrew,

I think this is where the whole "We won" and "You lose" thing started. It's kind of hard to frame policy making in these terms and not expect them to come back and haunt you. And the way the country works, you can't just turn it off when it no longer suits you.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0109/17862.html

Quote:

President Obama listened to Republican gripes about his stimulus package during a meeting with congressional leaders Friday morning - but he also left no doubt about who's in charge of these negotiations. "I won," Obama noted matter-of-factly, according to sources familiar with the conversation.

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Frankly what you have here is one very partisan individual arguing that his side is totally consistent, logical and pure as the driven snow...and the other side's arguments are inconsistent, illogical and vengeful. This is certainly nothing new nor particularly noteworthy.

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@Merry Andrew,

Merry Andrew wrote:

George, I generally respect your opinions, but methinks thou doest protest too much. Much of what you say amounts to no more than an apologia pro culpa for the Republicans.

Perhaps so, but consider this question.

Do you believe that Krugman accurately described the the central objections to tje various kealth care plans under consideration in the Congress?

Or did he instead select one argument among many to serve his rhetorical intent?

Is it possible that the Republican objections to the proposed $500 billion cuts in Medicare were ignited by the obviously fatuous claims of the president that he was merely eliminating fraud and abuse, when in fact he is targeting the Medicare Advantage program and merely proposing the summary and unilateral reduction of rated to hospitals (having already cut a deal with the AMA to exempt doctors in return for their "support"? Scooter chairs and the like will survive.

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Well, speaking just for me, I am a bit embarrassed for my party when I see such juvenile behavior. I have to remind myself that they are the fringe and keep going. Such things as clapping when America loses something like the Olympics is really rather stupid. Cheer when Obama screws up or does something stupid, but really, this is just a poor reflection of the extremist camp of the Republican party. The rest of us frown upon such reactions.

That being said, Krugman is still a douche. His opinion is no less biased then Limbaughs.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

The Medicare Advantage program should be cut. It's a wasteful subsidy of private insurers. And that amounts to about 1/3rd of the money they are going to save in 10 years on medicare, more than 150 billion dollars.

I'm afraid that the other 'arguments' presented by the right-wing are pretty half-baked and ideological in nature. Scare stories about the government being unable to manage health care are not convincing to anyone, George.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I believe that you have very little in the way of experience with either government managed health care or the government's management of anything on which to base your unfounded assertion. Unlike you, I have a great deal of both in fields ranging from the military to defense contractors, to the Department of Energy and its National Laboratories, The EPA, Department of Interior and the Army Corps of Engineers. In every case one finds the same brueaucratic authoritarianism, inflexibility, focus on process instead of objective and general ineptitude - all accompanied by a substantial dose of ordinary self serving venality, and occasionally real corruption. Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die. Brueaucrats last forever.

I could be wrong. Perhaps all your experience is with government or government-like entities such as Universities. If so you may not be able to detect the difference.

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I believe that you have very little in the way of experience with either government managed health care or the government's management of anything on which to base your unfounded assertion. Unlike you, I have a great deal of both in fields ranging from the military to defense contractors, to the Department of Energy and its National Laboratories, The EPA, Department of Interior and the Army Corps of Engineers. In every case one finds the same brueaucratic authoritarianism, inflexibility, focus on process instead of objective and general ineptitude - all accompanied by a substantial dose of ordinary self serving venality, and occasionally real corruption. Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die. Brueaucrats last forever.

I could be wrong. Perhaps all your experience is with government or government-like entities such as Universities. If so you may not be able to detect the difference.

Interesting; Either I have no experience working with the gov't, or I have too much and can't tell how corrupt and inept they are. Nice false dichotomy you have set up there.

You are correct on your second point, however, that much of my experience is with Universities, having worked for them for the vast majority of my adult life. However, I do have a few years of experience working for a Fortune 50 company; and I did not note much difference in quality of employee or process, as the place I worked was as full of bureaucrats and dumbasses as any University I've been at.

I take exception to this:

Quote:

Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die.

You are wrong, when it comes to health insurance. The way the market is set up, structurally, many insurers can be inefficient and downright venal with no penalty whatsoever, b/c people don't really have much of a choice.

When you are speaking of inefficiencies in business, please remember to add the Profit Necessity as an inefficiency of modern private insurance. The need to please investors directly leads to a degradation of service for customers. It is one of the few business models in which investors only make money, if the actual customers of the business are denied services. What a perverse incentive!

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die. Brueaucrats last forever.

I've heard this before and used to take it as axiomatic. However I don't really think it's true anymore. I think that private sector enterprises are subject to all the same trappings as government agencies, especially once they get big enough to have serious consequences result from their "death", and even more so if their industry is one primarily supported by government, like defense.

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

McGentrix wrote:

Well, speaking just for me, I am a bit embarrassed for my party when I see such juvenile behavior. I have to remind myself that they are the fringe and keep going. Such things as clapping when America loses something like the Olympics is really rather stupid. Cheer when Obama screws up or does something stupid, but really, this is just a poor reflection of the extremist camp of the Republican party. The rest of us frown upon such reactions.

I don't want this to go unnoticed. I think that right now the obnoxious dickwads have the stage but there are still lots of people who remain conservative and/or Republican who don't agree with it but are drowned out. Lindsey Graham, who I have no particular affection for, would be one. I know there are others, but they aren't getting much press.

1 Reply

@FreeDuck,

Yeah, I was one of thumbs-uppers on that one.

1 Reply

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