10
   

Comments, anyone?

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:14 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
That being said, Krugman is still a douche. His opinion is no less biased then Limbaughs.


I have my qualms with Krugman and his objectivity when it comes to politics, but he's simply not in the same ballpark of biased as Limbaugh.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:17 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

Private sector enterprises are subject to the same human failures, however those that don't deliver are usually quickly forced to change or die. Brueaucrats last forever.

I've heard this before and used to take it as axiomatic. However I don't really think it's true anymore. I think that private sector enterprises are subject to all the same trappings as government agencies, especially once they get big enough to have serious consequences result from their "death", and even more so if their industry is one primarily supported by government, like defense.


I think you have a valid point there. However it isn't so much defense related industries that have been protected by government as it is large financial institutions and other enterprises that are being bled to death by politically-connected organized labor. The list of even large aerospace and Defense companies that went out of business or were foced to merge with others, just to survive, soon after the Cold war ended is very long indeed. It has been the banks, the UAW dominated auto manufacturers and particularly government-connected enterprises connected to the Service Employees Union that have benefitted most from government largess and stimulus money - all carefully directed by political interests.

Most of the people in this country are still employed by small and mid sized businesses that have to adapt and compete every day just to survive. Only a small fraction of corporations last more than 30 years. Those that do are often well-known, but they are a minority. Creative destruction and recreation are still alive and well.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:26 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

When you are speaking of inefficiencies in business, please remember to add the Profit Necessity as an inefficiency of modern private insurance. The need to please investors directly leads to a degradation of service for customers. It is one of the few business models in which investors only make money, if the actual customers of the business are denied services. What a perverse incentive!

Cycloptichorn

Profit is simply thc cost associated with attrracting the capital to run the enterprise. Government doesn't apply the same accounting standards it demands of corporations to its own afairs. In particular government entities and appropriations don't reveal or acknowledge the cost of the capital they displace to cover their operations. Their cost is real and it is generally only slightly less than that of large business, however it is hidden in separate appropriations to service the fast-growing national debt. If a proportional share of the interest payments on the national debt were added to the apparent "costs" and "government overhead" you would see an enormous increase - even in the predicted costs of new government entitlement programs. That is the magic wand of "progressive" politicians..
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:29 am
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:

Yeah, I was one of thumbs-uppers on that one.

I've got to start making better use of the thumbs.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:40 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

When you are speaking of inefficiencies in business, please remember to add the Profit Necessity as an inefficiency of modern private insurance. The need to please investors directly leads to a degradation of service for customers. It is one of the few business models in which investors only make money, if the actual customers of the business are denied services. What a perverse incentive!

Cycloptichorn

Profit is simply thc cost associated with attrracting the capital to run the enterprise.


Really? Here I thought that Profit was the stacks of cash that were left over after expenses had been paid. I don't believe your description provides anything close to an actual summing up of the influence of the Profit motive upon businesses. In our investment environment, companies are pushed to provide expanding profits or at the very least maintain the same level of profit as their competitors, regardless of changes in the business environment or their customer's needs - not to mention covering the losses of their poor investments.

Profit is not simply a 'cost' that is passed along to consumers, it is the point of private enterprise. This is the crux of the problem with our current system: the ultimate goal is to generate profits for investors, not to keep people healthy! This is a perverse incentive.

Quote:
Government doesn't apply the same accounting standards it demands of corporations to its own affairs. In particular government entities and appropriations don't reveal or acknowledge the cost of the capital they displace to cover their operations. Their cost is real and it is generally only slightly less than that of large business, however it is hidden in separate appropriations to service the fast-growing national debt. If a proportional share of the interest payments on the national debt were added to the apparent "costs" and "government overhead" you would see an enormous increase - even in the predicted costs of new government entitlement programs. That is the magic wand of "progressive" politicians..


Ah, so government is one big shell-game, constantly deceiving and lying to the taxpayers in order to continue their Bureaucratic existence. If only they would stop 'displacing' capital (lol), why our world would be ever so much better.

Once again, your Ideological arguments are not really convincing - and they do not reflect the experience that other countries have had in regards to health care. How do you explain the discrepancies between your theory of government incompetence, and the high levels of service and satisfaction that citizens of countries with Socialized or partially socialized health care systems regularly report?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:41 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
That being said, Krugman is still a douche. His opinion is no less biased then Limbaughs.


I have my qualms with Krugman and his objectivity when it comes to politics, but he's simply not in the same ballpark of biased as Limbaugh.


Meh, we'll just disagree about that. Krugman hides his bias behind a more intellectual vocabulary, but he is on the same playing field.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 11:55 am
Quote:
How did one of our great political parties become so ruthless, so willing to embrace scorched-earth tactics even if so doing undermines the ability of any future administration to govern?

The key point is that ever since the Reagan years, the Republican Party has been dominated by radicals " ideologues and/or apparatchiks who, at a fundamental level, do not accept anyone else’s right to govern.


I do think there's something to this statement. These folks have learned to shout their way to the front of the line as spokespeople for the party. I see the sentiment in my discussions with right-wingers at other, more conservative, sites where they're in the majority.

Thumbs up to McG here as well.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 12:55 pm
@McGentrix,
But the worst thing about Limbaugh isn't his bias. Krugman makes arguments. Limbaugh is a fat hypocritical bully.
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:03 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

But the worst thing about Limbaugh isn't his bias. Krugman makes arguments. Limbaugh is a fat hypocritical bully.


Bully to whom? Words will never hurt anyone and often, there is a hint of truth behind much of the bluster. Same with Krugman et.al. The problem lies in taking that small hint of truth and stretching it so far that it becomes useless to the discussion being made. Talking heads speak directly to those that want to listen to the message and those people will nod along agreeably, oblivious to the bias, knowing that their sage is speaking the truth.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:19 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

But the worst thing about Limbaugh isn't his bias. Krugman makes arguments. Limbaugh is a fat hypocritical bully.


Limbaugh makes arguments too. Like Krugman's they are often unfair, selectively deceptive and constructed just to denigrate the opposition. Both are purveyor's of partisan rhetoric. The differences are (1) Limbaugh is fat: Krugman looks like an insolent rat; (2) Krugman masquerades as a serious, unbiased analyst: Limbagh's partisanship is open and undenied.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:22 pm
@georgeob1,
Have to say I kind of agree with george. I really soured on Krugman during the 2008 campaign. He was intellectually dishonest in a way that I found pretty shocking (and it required deep knowledge of the subject to figure out how dishonest he was being, which instantly made me second-guess all the stuff I'd accepted from him as truth on all the subjects I DIDN'T have deep knowledge of).

I still think Limbaugh is worse. But maybe more a matter of degree than kind. (I know, I can't believe I said that either.)
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:23 pm
@georgeob1,
You forgot (3) - Krug is an actual economist. He has some expertise in the field that he discusses, whether you agree with his arguments or not.

Limbaugh isn't an expert in anything he talks about, unless he's discussing being a drug-addicted fat idiot.

Cycloptichorn
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:25 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
OK, you have a point there. My first round of disenchantment with Krugman was when he made some predictions that affected my house-hunting that didn't pan out (i.e., economics). But he definitely is a scholar when it comes to economics. That's a real difference.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

You forgot (3) - Krug is an actual economist. He has some expertise in the field that he discusses, whether you agree with his arguments or not.

Limbaugh isn't an expert in anything he talks about, unless he's discussing being a drug-addicted fat idiot.

Cycloptichorn


I read the article that opened this thread and must have missed the part where Krugman discussed economics. Perhaps you can point that out?

Limbaugh is an expert entertainer as his ratings demonstrate. He is also expert at pulling liberal strings.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 01:44 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The differences are (1) Limbaugh is fat: Krugman looks like an insolent rat; (2) Krugman masquerades as a serious, unbiased analyst: Limbagh's partisanship is open and undenied.

I think it must be the shifty eyes that invite the rat comparison.

What I've heard of Limbaugh is mostly of the ranting insulting variety. He is master of the demonize and destroy method, I don't know if that constitutes arguing. Maybe if Krugman had a radio show and made his arguments verbally it would be easier to compare, but I can't place them on the same level of discourse.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Oct, 2009 02:45 am
@FreeDuck,
There are many ways to demonize and destroy. The Krugman article at the title of this thread is a good example.
0 Replies
 
 

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