27
   

Alright Republicans, We Give Up

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 05:57 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Since nobody has read the bill yet, and since it has not been made public, how can you say with 100% certainty that there arent any provisions like this in the bill?

Really? No one has read the bill? So then that chain email that lists page number 425 of the bill showing where the bill will euthanize old people is garbage? Wow...

Actually, the bill is HERE
http://energycommerce.house.gov/Press_111/20090714/aahca.pdf
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 05:58 pm
@parados,
Is that the final bill, or just one version of it?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:00 pm
@mysteryman,
Since the bill hasn't passed both houses, of course it isn't the final bill.

Any other silly questions?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:04 pm
@parados,
So it is subject to change?
And it is possible that some rather despicable things could still be included?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:06 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So it is subject to change?
And it is possible that some rather despicable things could still be included?


So, those people are making up stuff that COULD be in the bill when it finally passes? Please MM. You can't really think that is what they are doing or it would be sane if it was.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:08 pm
@parados,
I dont know what they are doing.
I cant read minds.
However, until the final bill is passed and enacted we really wont know what it consists of.

So, the doom and gloomers (while IMHO idiotic) could be right, but I seriously dont think so.
soozoo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:17 pm
@Centroles,
I trust Snopes just slightly more than I trust Al Gore. Or is it slightly less?

0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 06:35 pm
@roger,
really?? i thought it was white out.

oh, wait. my bad... that was Kathryn Harris. Laughing
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 07:16 pm
@mysteryman,
Except they are not claiming it COULD be in the bill. They are claiming it is in the bill. There is a difference. Then add to that their tactics of not letting anyone dispute them because they shout them down it is NOT an honest debate, let alone a debate at all.

It is a group that wants only their false position put out there. They refuse to let anyone else talk.
0 Replies
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 07:34 pm
I was on vacation last week and stopped in at a state facility for a map and information and one of the state employees was telling anyone who would listen that the bill contained a provision to deny care to older people and he futher stated that anyone who was 65 had to have a doctors appoiment with a government doctor to determine wether one was healthy enough to live. Stupidity seems to run rampent with government employees.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 08:53 pm
@rabel22,
rabel22 wrote:

I was on vacation last week and stopped in at a state facility for a map and information and one of the state employees was telling anyone who would listen that the bill contained a provision to deny care to older people and he futher stated that anyone who was 65 had to have a doctors appoiment with a government doctor to determine wether one was healthy enough to live. Stupidity seems to run rampent with government employees.


I don't think that stupidity is rampant among them. However, bureaucrats and the organizations they serve are not know for obsessions with customer satisfaction and service. In any event, they will be the folks running your health care and spending your tax dollars.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:11 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:

Anyone can check anything in the public domain. The author is providing guarantees, albeit facetiously, that he doesn't know to be true and probably has no authority to make true. The article is merely intended to mock, and has no value whatever as an argument.


So rather than show how the author is incorrect, you decided to attack him rather than his satire? Good for you Brandon.....

By the way, I guarantee that "facetiously" is not used in the bill.

I didn't attack him in the slightest. I attacked the content of his satire.

Once again, he posted a list of assertions which he has no knowledge are true (or at least presents no evidence) and no ability to influence. It's a valueless article and richly deserving of negative commentary.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:16 pm
This fear of rationing thing is idiotic.

Health care is already being rationed-- except now it is a big freakin' lottery run by and for people whose primary interest is making as big a profit as possible.

Cancer patients who happen to be "pre-existing" conditions are currently denied life-saving treatment, even if they have insurance, if the insurance company can just find a loophole. (We won't even talk about what happens to you if you happen to be laid off at the wrong time).

The only answer you hear the tea bagging conservatives chanting (when they aren't comparing Democrats to Nazis) is "Just say NO!"

This is conservative hypocrisy at its finest.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 11:23 pm
@Centroles,
Centroles wrote:

This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US congress and kept accurate by the national institute of standards and technology and the US naval observatory, I get into my national highway traffic safety administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the environmental protection agency, using legal tender issed by the federal reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the US postal service and drop the kids off at the public school.

After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the department of labor and the occupational safety and health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to ny house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal’s inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it’s valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet which was developed by the defense advanced research projects administration and post on freerepublic.com and fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can’t do anything right.

Consider this post stolen. I cut and pasted it an sent it to a friend.

Too funny.
K
O
0 Replies
 
marsz
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 12:52 am
??' The Human Cost of Rationing Healthcare
July 18th, 2009 · This week the Congressional Budget Office projected enormous cost increases under the current congressional plan for national health care. It was promoted as saving taxpayers money, but the CBO estimates a cost over $1 trillion and it is likely to raise the tax burden for many Americans to close to 60% of their already dwindling incomes, as government bureaucrats balloon the cost of what is already the most expensive health care system in the world. The devastating financial impact of ObamaCare for the nation and every citizen is now overwhelmingly clear. But just in case you still harbor any illusions about how disastrous current proposals for national health care would be, I thought it was time to revisit the other cost " the cost in human suffering and loss of life under socialized medicine.

A key element of the cynically misnamed Affordable Health Choices Act, which is the plan currently being rushed through congress to meet deadlines and criteria set by President Obama, is rationing health care using Comparative Effectiveness Research (CER) methodology where government bureaucrats would set up schedules by which treatment would be allocated based on statistics and cost to benefit ratios rather than the interests and needs of the specific patient. Decisions on care would be matters of policy based on group effectiveness rather than on a case by case basis and doctors would have to abide by these decisions without regard to the welfare of the patient.

The impact of rationing in other nations where it has been introduced as part of the national health care system has been horrendous. It attempts to reduce the financial cost of the system by a trade-off which increases the cost in lives lost and individual suffering. Two nations with many similarities to the United States which have resorted to rationing health care are Great Britain and Canada. In both nations the human cost has been high and the results are easily quantified.

The failure of rationing comes down to two basic problems " denial of treatment and very long wait times. Both of these can result in suffering and death for patients, especially those with critical and chronic conditions which are treated easily and routinely in the United States today, but which often result in death in Great Britain and Canada.

One telling scenario of denial of care comes with cardiac patients. In the United States if you come into a hospital with an arterial blockage you are usually scheduled for an angioplasty or a bypass in a matter of days, because that is the best way to achieve a long-term solution to the problem. In Canada and Britain the common response is dictated by a shortage of surgeons and facilities, so you are given beta blockers to try to keep your heart functioning and sent away. If you're lucky you'll survive the months that it takes to get you scheduled for surgery or maybe come into the hospital in the middle of an actual heart attack when your chances of surviving the surgery are lower but they may actually operate. Or even better, if you live in Canada they may slap on a heart monitor and have an ambulance drive you to the US for treatment as they do with hundreds of cardiac patients every year. The sad reality is that many who are denied immediate surgical treatment for heart problems just die.

In the US a coronary patient is four times as likely to receive surgical treatment as in Britain. In the US only 5% of Americans are made to wait more than four months for surgery. In Canada 27% wait four months or more and in Britain 36% wait four months or more. While the base rate of coronary disease in the US is higher than in other countries because of diet and lifestyle, the rate of survival for those diagnosed with coronary problems is much higher than in other countries because patients get the best and most appropriate treatment more quickly.

The same pattern holds true with cancer. Overall Britons and Europeans in general die at a higher rate from all forms of cancer than US citizens and the difference is dramatic in cases where early detection and treatment are important. For example, women with breast cancer in Britain have a 46% death rate as opposed to 25% in the US. Men with prostate cancer in Britain have a 57% mortality rate while in the US only 19% die and the death rate is declining rapidly because of early detection. It's the same with colon cancer. In Europe as a whole there is only a 8% survival rate, in Britain there's a 40% survival rate and in the US there's a 60% survival rate. With cancer of the esophagus only 7% survive while in the US 12% survive, although it's still one of the most deadly forms of cancer. Both long- and short-term recovery and survival rates for all forms of cancer are also significantly higher for US patients. Rationed care has limited diagnostic facilities like MRI machines and has created long wait times for specialist doctors. In fact, 40% of cancer patients in Britain never get to see a cancer specialist at all, and the National Health bureaucrats have denied basic tests like pap smears and ruled out powerful chemotherapy medicines as too expensive, all of which has cost lives. With diseases like cancer where early detection and treatment are vital, resource rationing means a lot more dead patients.

The human cost of delay of care caused by rationing is particularly significant. One key element of this is the wait time to see a specialist who can provide the best treatment for specific ailments. In the US 74% of patients get to see a specialist within four weeks. In Canada only 40% get seen that quickly and in Britain only 42%. In many cases these delays can cost lives, but the cost of suffering has to be considered as well. In both Canada and Britain the wait times are even longer for conditions which are not life threatening, but can be very painful and seriously reduce quality of life. In Britain a hip or knee replacement can take more than five months and in Canada it can take as long as eight months. That's a very long time when pain is literally crippling.

An unsurprising irony is that as our congress looks at health care reform, activists in Canada, Britain, and a number of other countries are also looking at health care reform. The difference is that they are trying to figure out ways to introduce more choice and more market elements and reduce rationing at the same time we are plunging headlong into the same mistakes which they made a generation ago and which they now realize have left them with unacceptable failures in their systems with thousands of preventable deaths every year and millions stuck on waiting lists for essential treatment.

This is how bad it can get with government-run, single-payer systems, which may have a cost in lives and suffering, but do at least bring down the cost of health care. Imagine how much worse it could be with a combination of government bureaucracy and rationing and the high prices of private insurance and you have some idea of what ObamaCare will be like. It is likely to have all the flaws of socialized medicine while preserving most of the shortcomings of our current private insurance system, because the thousand-page bill which congress was considering is largely authored by lobbyists for the health care, pharmaceutical and insurance industries. It's like yet another bailout for these industries at a high cost in life, suffering and taxation to the American people.

Even the far left agrees that the health care plan currently being rammed through congress serves the interests of big insurance, medical and pharmaceutical companies while doing more harm than good to the average citizen. It rations and reduces the quality of medical care. It massively increases costs and forces small businesses and individuals to purchase insurance plans at inflated prices which they cannot afford or pay substantial penalties which they also can't afford. It passes many of these costs on to the public in huge tax increases. It doesn't solve the key problem of inflated insurance and health care costs and is projected to still leave 20 million people uninsured.

This may be the most monumental legislative disaster ever given serious consideration in the notoriously profligate halls of congress. This plan is not what the American people have in mind when they think of health care reform. It ignores their needs and sets their interests aside to pander to statist radicals and big business. The American people deserve better.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Inadequately+Funded+Universal+Health+Care+Leads+to+Rationing:+Part...-a0204073116
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 05:36 am
@marsz,
Marsz... Why then, do you suppose, that the UK has a higher life expectancy than the US (meaning people on average life longer lives)?

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 05:48 am
Goddamnit . . . somebody needs to kill Palin's baby . . .
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 07:37 am
@marsz,
marsz quote wrote:
The American people deserve better.


Well, no-one forces you
a) to life in the UK under the NHS
b) not to get an additional health insurance
c) not to look how our mandatroy health insurance systems work.

However: the English, Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish people (=all of them) are better health insured than the US-American people.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 08:21 am
Reality Check

Quote:
If you've tuned into the news in the past few days, it's clear that the debate about health insurance reform has heated up as Senators and Representatives return to their home states and districts. A troubling trend has also emerged: as more people become engaged in the issue, defenders of the status quo have responded by muddying the waters with more wild rumors and scare tactics.

It's time for a reality check.

Today the White House is rolling out a new website that focuses on what reform really means for you and your family, debunks some common myths along the way and provides you with online tools and content to share the facts with friends, family and anyone else in your social network.

The first set of videos addresses a wide scope of topics and debunks some of those common myths:

CEA Chair Christina Romer details how health insurance reform will impact small businesses.

Domestic Policy Council Director Melody Barnes tackles a nasty rumor about euthanasia and clearly describes how reform helps families.

Matt Flavin, the White House's Director of Veterans and Wounded Warrior Policy, clears the air about Veteran's benefits.

Kavita Patel, M.D., a doctor serving in the White House's Office of Public Engagement, explains that health care rationing is happening right now and how reform gives control back to patients and doctors.

Robert Kocher, M.D., a doctor serving on the National Economic Council, debunks the myth that health insurance reform will be financed by cutting Medicare benefits.

In a video first released last week, Linda Douglass from the White House Health Reform Office addresses fears about the end of our private insurance system and reiterates that if you like your current plan you can keep it.

There is also a handy FAQ about health insurance reform.

Moving forward, we'll use this platform to provide you with the latest "Reality Checks" and tools to combat misinformation.

We also want to hear from you. If you have questions about health insurance reform or suggestions on what topics we should address next, please let us know.

The road ahead will surely reveal more aggressive efforts from defenders of the status quo to confuse and scare Americans with half-truths and outright lies. We're all too familiar with the time-tested tactics that opponents of reform have used for decades to prevent the meaningful change our health insurance system needs.

Now, with what the President calls "the best chance of reform we have ever had," it’s time for citizens across the country get the facts about reform and work on the grassroots level to add a healthy dose of reality into the national discussion on health insurance reform.



georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 08:47 am
@revel,
Interesting to note that the Administration's term of art for this issue has morphed from "Health Care Reform" to "Health Insurance Reform". Apparently they are trying to alter the focus of the issue away from the elements of their rhetoric (and of some of the draft legislation in the House) that have provoked such outrage.
 

Related Topics

Oddities and Humor - Discussion by edgarblythe
Let's play "Caption the Photo" II - Discussion by gustavratzenhofer
Funny Pictures ***Slow Loading*** - Discussion by JerryR
JIM NABORS WAS GOY? - Question by farmerman
Caption The Cartoon - Discussion by panzade
Geek and Nerd Humor - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Caption The Cartoon Part Deux - Discussion by panzade
IS IT OK FOR ME TO CHEAT? - Question by Setanta
2008 Election: Political Humor - Discussion by Robert Gentel
 
Copyright © 2026 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 03/03/2026 at 03:05:58