Vietnamnurse
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 01:54 pm
@BillRM,
Did you hear Sarah Palin call the Obama health plan "evil"? Inferring that we would use euthanasia on her son and kill off sick old people. I really fear for this country with all the "birthers" and corporate funded agitators against some sensible health care. I may be getting off the planet just in time. Loonies.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:26 pm
@Vietnamnurse,
Sarah Palin call the Obama health plan "evil"? Inferring that we would use euthanasia on her son and kill off sick old people
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vietnamnurse one problem is that we have part of our ‘ruling/power’ class had developed the art of right wing mob control to a fine art.

Being able to press all the buttons connected to their nightmares/fears to get them to go again their own best interest time after time.

Oh this is a section in the health bill that would pay for counseling concerning living will/end of life care if someone wish for such counseling and we can spin that into forcing old people to off themselves.

Oh they might pay for women to have abortions if they chose to do so. My we can spin that into women will be force to have abortions unless the babies are perfect.

Talking to the fears instead of the reason of a group that prefer to not think too deeply in any case is a complete win for the fear masters.

The only problem is this method tend to turn off the people who do think every once in a while.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 04:40 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Yes, because elections are won in the middle. The republicans have the right 20-30% locked up. The democrats have the left 20-30% locked up. It's the middle that decides the election and when the middle sees all of this, a large number are not going to want to associate themselves with the fringe. The dems are looking like the party of wanting to do something right now.


that's how i see it.

the constant hysteria is really starting to bug....
Vietnamnurse
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 05:26 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
I got the same "Bug" DTOM!!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 07:37 am
@BillRM,
Did you make the same comment when the left-wing was protesting Bush?
I dont remember you saying anything then.

While I disagree with what the right is doing regarding some of the "town hall" meetings regarding health care, and what the "birthers" are doing and saying about where Obama was born, you all seem to be forgetting something.

As American citizens, they have the right to do what they are doing.
Its called democracy.
Now, the people holding the town hall meetings also have the right to have these people removed from the meetings, but they dont have the right to tell them that they cany protest or demand that their voices be heard at these meetings.

I guess this is a true test for those on the left.
If you truly support the first amendment and if you truly support free speech, then you must support these people, no matter how wacky or out of control they seem to be.
I know its a cliche, but supporting free speech also means supporting the speech of those you disagree with.
engineer
 
  5  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 07:55 am
@mysteryman,
I certainly support the birthers' right to say what they please, same with flat earthers and moon landing deniers. The town hall folks are another matter. They are not stating an opinion, they are trying to disrupt others from speaking, in some cases with threats of violence, with organized attacks. It's a shame, because it supports Bush's policy of vetting his crowds to only have supporters in them. There should be room for the crowd for reasonable dissent without having to police the crowd.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:36 am
@engineer,
The effect of the brown shirting of town hall meetings will be fewer meetings. This, of course, stresses democracy.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:44 am
@DontTreadOnMe,
As Bill Maher said, the country is stupid. I loved the guy at the town hall meeting who screamed that the government should keep its hands off Medicare.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:46 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
As American citizens, they have the right to do what they are doing.
Its called democracy.


Do you read the constitution selectively?

Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

People who disrupt someone's meetings, and who employ threats of violence are not assembling peaceably. Furthermore, those who were bounced from the Shrub's campaign meetings had disrupted nothing, and threatened no one.

I guess understanding those distinctions is the true test for those on the right.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 09:56 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

mysteryman wrote:
As American citizens, they have the right to do what they are doing.
Its called democracy.


Do you read the constitution selectively?

Congress shall make no law . . . abridging . . . the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

People who disrupt someone's meetings, and who employ threats of violence are not assembling peaceably. Furthermore, those who were bounced from the Shrub's campaign meetings had disrupted nothing, and threatened no one.

I guess understanding those distinctions is the true test for those on the right.


Ramen!!!!!!!!!
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 11:45 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
People who disrupt someone's meetings


While yelling and screaming are disruptive, they are not in and of themselves violent.
So they are still peaceful.

Quote:
who employ threats of violence are not assembling peaceably


This part I agree with, and I have said so before.

Quote:
Furthermore, those who were bounced from the Shrub's campaign meetings had disrupted nothing, and threatened no one.


But, are you now saying that the people that are screaming and raising hell SHOULD be removed from these meetings?
Dont they have the right to be heard also?
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 01:09 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
People who disrupt someone's meetings


While yelling and screaming are disruptive, they are not in and of themselves violent.
So they are still peaceful.

Quote:
who employ threats of violence are not assembling peaceably


This part I agree with, and I have said so before.

Quote:
Furthermore, those who were bounced from the Shrub's campaign meetings had disrupted nothing, and threatened no one.


But, are you now saying that the people that are screaming and raising hell SHOULD be removed from these meetings?
Dont they have the right to be heard also?


Setanta could give a better explanation than me, mysteryman. I just wanted to point out that people who disrupt meetings are preventing the free speech of those who actually have something of substance to discuss. Disruption itself is not protected by freedom of speech because it is just the opposite. The disruptors and screamers are preventing the free speech of everyone else.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 02:14 pm
@mysteryman,
i do agree that in order to preserve my right to say what i want to say, i also must allow others to say things that are against everything i believe in.

when they start making death threats though, they need to be shut down. i don't care who they are.

that is the u.s. policy on domestic terrorists like bill ayers, tim mcveigh, eric rudolph, right?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 02:16 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

The effect of the brown shirting of town hall meetings will be fewer meetings.


naw, they should have more of them. and the media needs to pull it's collective head out and start covering the republican townhalls.

if nothing else, we deserve parity in the reporting. and it would be interesting to see if the republicans are getting nailed with all of that froth too...


0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 02:39 pm
@wandeljw,
Good point.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 03:53 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
But, are you now saying that the people that are screaming and raising hell SHOULD be removed from these meetings?
Dont they have the right to be heard also?


To the extent that yelling and screaming prohibit the orderly process of a meeting, yes i consider that those in authority in the meeting have a right to deal with it. Whether or not it is necessary to remove them would be a decision for those participating in the meeting.

People certainly have a right to be heard, but not to the exclusion of others. It would be incredibly naive to suggest that those disrupting these meetings are simply asking for equal time. Their very obvious purpose is to prevent others from being heard. And i consider that to be evidence that they have not peaceably assembled.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 04:56 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
People certainly have a right to be heard


There is where you are 100% WRONG.
NOBODY has the "right to be heard".
Everybody has a right to freedom of speech, but nobody has to listen.

If the "right to be heard" truly existed, then you and every other liberal/dem would have to listen to people like Rush, Glen Beck, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and every other conservative commentator and pundit out there.

If the "right to be heard" existed, then you would have to stand and listen to every street corner preacher and every street corner doomsayer out there.

You dont have to, because the "right to be heard" does not exist.

Quote:
Their very obvious purpose is to prevent others from being heard. And i consider that to be evidence that they have not peaceably assembled.


I dont remember you saying this when the left disrupted many repubs when they tried to speak at college campuses during the Bush admin.
Why didnt you speak up then?

But, since your entire premise about a "right to be heard" is flawed, then anything you say in support of that "right" is flawed.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 05:00 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:
I dont remember you saying this when the left disrupted many repubs when they tried to speak at college campuses during the Bush admin.
Why didnt you speak up then?

The two cases are not parallel. Protesting at a speech is not the same as deliberately blocking communications with one's elected representative.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 05:13 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Protesting at a speech is not the same as deliberately blocking communications with one's elected representative.


If you protest so loudly that I cannot hear the President or any other elected rep speak, arent you blocking my communication with them?

But whats funny is the way you and others are twisting yourself into knots to show that you are somehow better then the repubs, when you do exactly the same thing.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 07:10 pm
@mysteryman,
1. I'm not twisting myself into knots about anything.
2. I have never disrupted or attempted to disrupt any gathering, political or not, so I'm not sure how I'm doing "exactly the same thing."
0 Replies
 
 

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