BillRM
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 07:23 pm
@mysteryman,
A far right winger with a brian?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 07:24 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

...My sister was also born in Hawaii, and she also has a "certificate of Live Birth", just like Obama has....


thank you ! i remember you saying that last year, too. +/- 80% of the country has been more than satisfied about all of this for a long time.

it's sad, but there are still some who simply cannot stand it that there's a brother in the oval office.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 11:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
It is my contention that saying 'Obama wasn't born in America' is slang for 'he's a nigger.' It's a code word for things which are unacceptable to say. And it's highly embarrassing for us as a nation, that such a large part of our population is buying into this idiocy.


I think you are reading way too much into it. You are ascribing a lot of merely partisan behavior to racism.

Quote:
No surprise that this attitude is most prevalent in the area of America which historically had the worst problems with racism; and it's equally unsurprising that the South continues to wane as a political force in American politics, given their failure to adjust to the changing face of our country.


No surprise because you already have your conclusion made up before looking at the data. It is also the regions where the partisan explanation would make a lot of sense.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 11:30 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Well, everyone is welcome to their own opinion, I guess.

But I know a good code word when I see's one.

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 11:30 pm
@Green Witch,
Green Witch wrote:
I think it's slang for he's an intellectual liberal Democrat. I'm not saying all is rosy in race land, but these same people never started a campaign against conservative blacks like Condaleeza Rice.


Exactly. This is a partisan, not racist, attack.
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 11:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Well, everyone is welcome to their own opinion, I guess.

But I know a good code word when I see's one.


If you are just going to decide you are right we'll of course have to agree to disagree, but I contend that if you are making this kind of assertion about racism based on this poll you should at least try to make a legitimate argument for it.

Your polls simply do not do so, they are meaningless to the conclusion you have derived from them. You've basically just brought "the south is typically racist" to the table but that does little to support your case because they are also typically not Democrats, there are also other demographic differences (notably in regard to information consumption) that you haven't ruled out.

If you poll the nation on who supports gungasnake's "kkk"/Clinton play on words you'll get a similar regional breakdown. It's not because the same regions are similarly racist against a white guy but because they are partisan.

These regions are divided much more by politics than by race, and you really just haven't bothered to establish how much when you decide this is based on race instead of politics.

Edit: But yeah, it probably is a "code word" aimed at a racist or xenophobic angle for some people. You just haven't established how much of that there is versus plain partisan hacks.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 01:19 am
@Robert Gentel,
Green Witch wrote:
I think it's slang for he's an intellectual liberal Democrat. I'm not saying all is rosy in race land, but these same people never started a campaign against conservative blacks like Condaleeza Rice.


"she's one of the good ones". i agree that part of it is simple partisanship. the rest is nothing but pure resentment; for the reason i brought up before.

Harold Ford ring a bell ? i was in Tennessee during that election. this is no different. same kind of people burping up the same kind of crap.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 09:49 am
@Robert Gentel,
Quote:

Edit: But yeah, it probably is a "code word" aimed at a racist or xenophobic angle for some people. You just haven't established how much of that there is versus plain partisan hacks.


Well, we'll never know what truly lies inside people's minds. You should consider the strong possibility that people are engaging in racist behavior - for partisan reasons.

I also find it to be really strange that other parts of the nation, who do have a relatively strong Conservative presence, did not indicate similar levels of belief in this. What is the explanation for this?

Some more number crunching:

http://washingtonindependent.com/53396/how-many-southern-whites-believe-obama-was-born-in-america

Quote:
According to Del Ali of Research 2000, if you excluded those people from the poll"if you look only at white voters in the South"the number of people who doubt Obama’s citizenship is higher than the 47 percent figure that has grabbed headlines today. "There was no deviation in the number of black, Hispanic, and other voters from one region of the country to another," Ali told TWI. In the South, like everywhere else, the vast majority of non-white voters said that Obama was born in the United States; 97 percent of black voters, 87 percent of Hispanic voters, and 88 percent of other minorities. The extremely low overall percentage? That’s due to white Southerners, who dragged down the average with an extremely high level of doubt about Obama.

So what proportion of Southern whites doubt that Obama is an American citizen? While Ali did not release the racial breakdowns for the the South, and cautioned that the margin of error in the smaller sample of 720 people would be larger than the national margin of error (2 percent), the percent of white Southern voters may be higher than 70 percent. More than 30 percent of the people polled in the South were non-white, and very few of them told pollsters that they had questions about Obama’s citizenship. In order for white voters to drive the South’s "don’t know" number to 30 percent and it’s "born outside the United States" number to 23 percent, as many as three-quarters of Southern whites told pollsters that they didn’t know where Obama was born.


I also happen to have a lot of personal experience living in the South, and - though you can discount it as anecdotal evidence all you like - this sort of thing isn't surprising, given what I've witnessed throughout my life. It goes beyond a partisan divide.

Cycloptichorn
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:29 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
This is a partisan, not racist, attack.

The problem I have with this is that so many people are Republicans because they are racist.

This is the same demographic that made up the Yellow Dog Democrats, until the Democrats got smart and made 'em move over to the Republicans.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I also happen to have a lot of personal experience living in the South, and - though you can discount it as anecdotal evidence all you like - this sort of thing isn't surprising, given what I've witnessed throughout my life. It goes beyond a partisan divide.

Yup. I haven't heard much of the Birther nonsense in Texas, but there's definitely a way for people to get across their racial prejudices without being explicit.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:32 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

This whole thing is nonsense.
My sister was also born in Hawaii, and she also has a "certificate of Live Birth", just like Obama has.
It has allowed her to get a passport, to get a govt job, and to enjoy every other benefit of being a citizen.

Hear, hear. +1
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:35 am
@DrewDad,
I am not sure how smart that was... the Republicans did pretty well after that.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:43 am
@ebrown p,
It's not just about winning elections. That's a lesson the Republicans still need to learn.
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 01:14 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

It's not just about winning elections. That's a lesson the Republicans still need to learn.


but that would require giving up being "the party of ME ".
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 06:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Well, everyone is welcome to their own opinion, I guess.

But I know a good code word when I see's one.

Cycloptichorn


Well, are you claiming that no conservative voters think of Obama as too far left for their tastes, and that is the reason some might be hoping there is a reason to invalidate his presidency? It cannot only be about race, since there are many people in this country, perhaps the majority, that do not care for the left leaning image that conservative media has given to the President.

The world is not one dimensional.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 07:56 pm
Birther? Thanks, Cyclo. Till seeing this, I was pretty sure brifter were the ugliest word inducted into the English language.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 10:22 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
The world is not one dimensional.

The point at the top of your head is....
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 10:23 pm
@DrewDad,
For the record... a point is not one dimensional either.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 02:59 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I also happen to have a lot of personal experience living in the South, and - though you can discount it as anecdotal evidence all you like - this sort of thing isn't surprising, given what I've witnessed throughout my life. It goes beyond a partisan divide.


I see your having lived in the south and raise my having lived in the south. But as you predicted, I really don't think either is relevant to either of our arguments.

I object to charges of racism on such flimsy (and it really doesn't get more flimsy than this kind of poll "crunching") grounds is because this makes people take racism a lot less seriously. When people cry racism like the boy who cried wolf it weakens the ability to fight real racism. Obama and Prof. Gates are guilty of wasting a lot of that political capital and accusations of racism that are of dubious validity do the same. The liberal blogs have lit up with this "birther" (and roger is right, what a god-awful neologism) being racist thing and it's basically just a big slur against the South, that if true still lacks any substance to the claim.

Sure there are probably a lot of people who find the foreigner argument to be compelling for xenophobic reasons, and who might also be racist, and yes those regions are commonly held to be more racist.... but before you know it you are engaging in the very act of stereotyping yourself and creating you own caricatures of people without much other than their stereotypes as evidence. There may well be a significant racial component to this, but I just don't think this kind of statistical analysis can substantiate this kind of claim and wish liberals weren't wasting moral outrage so easily.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 07:09 am
@Robert Gentel,
I'll go further and question the numbers posted for the South. If 25% of Southerns were birthers, where are they? I don't know any and while the typical birther might not typically hang out with A2K using engineers, you'd think I'd have run across one or two. I'll have to ask my extreme religious conservative brother if he knows any or maybe my factory floor brothers, but my point is this topic just never comes up in real life. If it wasn't for the news covering this story, it wouldn't exist.
0 Replies
 
 

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