5
   

I FEEL A LITTLE SORRY FOR MJ's M.D.

 
 
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:00 pm
I FEEL A LITTLE SORRY FOR MJ's M.D.

Granted that it is the job of an M.D. to keep his patient alive,
but presumably MJ put a lot of presure on him to administer
that sleep drug. There 's a pretty good chance that he explained
the risks to MJ.
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:06 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Above all else--do no harm, do you recall that ?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:24 pm
He will likely be put away for a long time, and I will have no sympathy. Yes, MJ was going to find someone who would sell what he wanted, but this doc was to get $150k a month for a reason....he was doing something that he knew to be wrong, and wanted to be compensated for walking on the wild side. He did, and the dice turned up bad, MJ died. Now it is time to go to jail.

The bitch of it is that the doc never collected his first two months pay, he got NOTHING in return for his jail time.

Justice is sweet sometimes....
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
Im afraid Dave doesnt get the point.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:33 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Im afraid Dave doesnt get the point.

U can explain it if u feel like it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jul, 2009 08:44 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Granted that it is the job of an M.D. to keep his patient alive,
but presumably MJ put a lot of presure on him to administer
that sleep drug. There 's a pretty good chance that he explained
the risks to MJ.
Would you reconsider the wording of this post now? In light of a real doctors duty to the patient, it includes the canon of ethics, Hippocrates above statement, and license requirements in the state in which Murry was practicing.

I guess being contaminated by so many lawyers in my career, I begin to understand your belief that everything is arbitrary. I reject it, but I understand.
sullyfish6
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 06:29 am
MJ was using that powerful drug - which should have been administered in a hospital setting - like an "appointment sleep" The Dr. was setting the dose and then withdrawing it when MJ wanted to get up. MJ was that desperate for sleep.

Someone (the Dr.) forgot to set the 'alarm' and MJ died. I predict that Dr. will be charged with manslaughter. MJ's autopsy may show a weakened heart, too. We will find out in a few days. But that Dr. is screwed1
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 07:24 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
Granted that it is the job of an M.D. to keep his patient alive,
but presumably MJ put a lot of presure on him to administer
that sleep drug. There 's a pretty good chance that he explained
the risks to MJ.
Would you reconsider the wording of this post now?
In light of a real doctors duty to the patient,
it includes the canon of ethics, Hippocrates above statement,
and license requirements in the state in which Murry was practicing.

I guess being contaminated by so many lawyers in my career,
I begin to understand your belief that everything is arbitrary.
I reject it, but I understand.

Upon the basis of the limited amount of indications that have been
forthcoming, and subject to amendment in the face of new evidence,
if I were on that jury, or if I were the judge in a bench trial,
I 'm inclined to take the vu that mercy is the better part of wisdom
in this case -- that MJ assumed the risk.

If that is indeed how the facts laid out, then
I don 't see that MJ cries out to be avenged.
To put it another way:
if it proves to be the case that the M.D. violated the applicable law,
then in fairness, MJ probably shoud be deemed to have been
a joint conspirator in the plot to do so.
" Ex culpa suo actio, non oritur. "





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 07:34 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Above all else--do no harm, do you recall that ?

Yes; I suspect that his patient absolved him of that.

" Consensus facit legum."

(Thay made their own private law. MJ waived his rights.)

I bet that if the M.D. had succeeded in reviving MJ,
he 'd have waived his rights again, and demanded continued use of the drug.


Its HIS life.





David
Phoenix32890
 
  2  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 07:46 am
I have been given propofol, many times, during a colonoscopy, and during radiofrequency ablation. The person who administers the drug is a licensed anaesthesiologist. It is a short acting anaesthesia. It is great stuff, and does its job very well.

It is certainly not a substitute for a sleeping pill. That doctor was completely out of line when he administered propofol for sleep, and IMO, should be prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter.


Quote:
Propofol is a drug that reduces anxiety and tension, and promotes relaxation and sleep or loss of consciousness. Propofol provides loss of awareness for short diagnostic tests and surgical procedures, sleep at the beginning of surgery, and supplements other types of general anesthetics.



http://www.drugs.com/propofol.html
dyslexia
 
  3  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 08:04 am
@Phoenix32890,
I guess I'm enough of a libertarian to think that each and every individual as the right to self-determination re use of drugs/medications as long as they have sufficient information to make an informed decision. Steve McQueen, for example, should have had every right to use apricot pits to treat his cancer (rather than having to go to mexico). The MD is responsible to the patient for providing such information but the patient is responsible for his actions taken.
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  0  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 08:10 am
Let's start a pool on how many times this MD will be raped by the brothers in prison first day if it's common knowledge he's the guy who OD'd Michael Jackson.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 08:23 am
@dyslexia,
dys- I hear what you are saying, and to a great extent I agree with you. There is one big difference, though. Apricot pits might not have done McQueen any good, but would not have hurt him. What would you say if an alternative doctor had suggested arsenic, instead of apricot pits?

The problem is, that in this instance, if Michael were given all the facts, unless he were a complete idiot, he could not have even considered propofol for sleep.

As someone with a libertarian bent myself, I would say that if Michael had signed a paper stating that he understood the possible ramifications of this drug, and chose to take it anyway, then it was his responsibility to take the consequences of his actions.

There is also the question of medical supervision, which was the responsibility of the doctor.
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 10:21 am
@Phoenix32890,
Apricot pits
CAUTION: Excessive eating of the kernal can result in HYDROCYANIC POISONING. Excess causes central nervous system depression and respiratory failure. The toxicity of amygdalin is reduced by stir-baking or steaming and can be neutralized by a decoction of the outer bark. Hydrocyanic (prussic) acid is a GENERAL PROTOPLASMIC POISON even at a dose of 2.5 g. For children as few as 10 kernals can be LETHAL
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 31 Jul, 2009 12:38 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:

Upon the basis of the limited amount of indications that have been
forthcoming, and subject to amendment in the face of new evidence,
if I were on that jury, or if I were the judge in a bench trial,
I 'm inclined to take the vu that mercy is the better part of wisdom
in this case -- that MJ assumed the risk.

If that is indeed how the facts laid out, then
I don 't see that MJ cries out to be avenged.
To put it another way:
if it proves to be the case that the M.D. violated the applicable law,
then in fairness, MJ probably shoud be deemed to have been
a joint conspirator in the plot to do so.
" Ex culpa suo actio, non oritur. "

Quote:
Yes; I suspect that his patient absolved him of that.

Yes, but is that suspicion enough to absolve the doctor of his responsibility in injecting MJ with a substance that proved fatal to him?

And if so, could anyone who is a doctor with prescription writing privileges, in a similar situation, but with a less famous patient - say perhaps a bothersome spouse-then just say, when approached by the judicial system after injecting that person with a similar substance, 'Oh, s/he wanted the drug and absolved me of my professional responsibility to 'first do no harm', so this dead person should bear partial responsibility and in fact, would have waived his/her rights again and demanded continued use of the drug'.

Do you see why it's important that the person who's prescribing the drug and doing the injections must be expected to not only have, but also use, better judgment than the person who's smacked out on the drugs David?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Aug, 2009 11:43 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:

Quote:

Upon the basis of the limited amount of indications that have been
forthcoming, and subject to amendment in the face of new evidence,
if I were on that jury, or if I were the judge in a bench trial,
I 'm inclined to take the vu that mercy is the better part of wisdom
in this case -- that MJ assumed the risk.

If that is indeed how the facts laid out, then
I don 't see that MJ cries out to be avenged.
To put it another way:
if it proves to be the case that the M.D. violated the applicable law,
then in fairness, MJ probably shoud be deemed to have been
a joint conspirator in the plot to do so.
" Ex culpa suo actio, non oritur. "

Quote:
Yes; I suspect that his patient absolved him of that.

Yes, but is that suspicion enough to absolve the doctor of his responsibility in injecting MJ with a substance that proved fatal to him?

And if so, could anyone who is a doctor with prescription writing privileges, in a similar situation, but with a less famous patient - say perhaps a bothersome spouse-then just say, when approached by the judicial system after injecting that person with a similar substance, 'Oh, s/he wanted the drug and absolved me of my professional responsibility to 'first do no harm', so this dead person should bear partial responsibility and in fact, would have waived his/her rights again and demanded continued use of the drug'.

Do you see why it's important that the person who's prescribing the drug and doing the injections must be expected to not only have, but also use, better judgment than the person who's smacked out on the drugs David?

I don 't.
Each of us is the captain of his own ship, including MJ.
Each of us OUTRANKS a mere government
insofar as our own good is concerned, in terms of our natural rights.

Hence, as an Individual, if I were on the M.D. 's criminal jury,
I 'd vote to uphold the sovereignty of the Individual
and to SUBORDINATE the usurped power of government.

If his patient applied pressure to him, waiving his rights
and preferring to take his chances to get better sleep,
that 's none of the government 's business. I 'd rather see
officers of government prosecuted
for interfering in private matters.





David
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 12:41 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
I don 't.
Each of us is the captain of his own ship, including MJ.
Each of us OUTRANKS a mere government
insofar as our own good is concerned, in terms of our natural rights

Yes, I'm in total agreement with this philophy.


Quote:
Hence, as an Individual, if I were on the M.D. 's criminal jury,
I 'd vote to uphold the sovereignty of the Individual
and to SUBORDINATE the usurped power of government.

Why? Are you in receipt of facts that others of us aren't? Did Michael Jackson tell the doctor - 'I don't care how dangerous this is to me - and I don't care how much you have to give me- just give me enough to put me to sleep- even if it might mean forever'?
Is there a letter of some sort that Michael Jackson left?
(I have to admit I've stopped following the case, so I'm sincerely asking- I don't know).

And if he wasn't expecting the doctor to be better able than he himself to monitor and control the dose so it wouldn't be dangerous to him - why would he have been paying a doctor when he could have just accessed the drug on the black market and injected it himself?


Quote:
If his patient applied pressure to him, waiving his rights
and preferring to take his chances to get better sleep,
that 's none of the government 's business. I 'd rather see
officers of government prosecuted for interfering in private matters.

But how would this play out in a court of law if doctors were absolved of their professional responsibility to actually monitor and control the controlled substances they have access to purely dependent upon WHAT THEY SAY their patients wanted?
Again, what if this doctor's wife were the person who ended up dead? Would you still absolve him of his responsibility because he explained, 'She wanted it - she asked me for it...I explained the risks and she said she didn't care''?

If MJ had contracted for an assisted suicide - so be it - I'm with you- that 'd have been his business.
Although if the doctor had assisted him in a state where that's illegal - he'd have to face the music.
Because we as laypeople do have to be able to trust that our medical professionals are not knowingly participating in encouraging and abetting drug addiction and death by overdose in the general population- don't we?
And if that's what they're doing - do we really want them to have access to all these drugs- and carte blanche to distribute them, not only as they see fit - but as their DRUG ADDICTED patients desire?

He aided and abetted MJ in his addiction the first time he picked up the needle and injected him. He sold his personal and professional ethics for 150,000 a month - which may not be illegal- but he injected someone with a lethal dose of a controlled substance and that is illegal.


OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 06:52 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I don 't.
Each of us is the captain of his own ship, including MJ.
Each of us OUTRANKS a mere government
insofar as our own good is concerned, in terms of our natural rights

aidan wrote:
Quote:
Yes, I'm in total agreement with this philophy.






David wrote:
Quote:
Hence, as an Individual, if I were on the M.D. 's criminal jury,
I 'd vote to uphold the sovereignty of the Individual
and to SUBORDINATE the usurped power of government.

aidan wrote:
Quote:
Why? Are you in receipt of facts that others of us aren't?

Did Michael Jackson tell the doctor -
'I don't care how dangerous this is to me - and I don't care how much you have to give me-
just give me enough to put me to sleep- even if it might mean forever'?
Is there a letter of some sort that Michael Jackson left?
(I have to admit I've stopped following the case, so I'm sincerely asking- I don't know).

Yeah, he called me the nite b4 and told me that.



aidan wrote:
Quote:
And if he wasn't expecting the doctor to be better able than he himself to monitor
and control the dose so it wouldn't be dangerous to him -
why would he have been paying a doctor when he could have
just accessed the drug on the black market and injected it himself?

His nurse said that he told her that his veins were too small n hard to find,
while she was looking for one.




David wrote:
Quote:
If his patient applied pressure to him, waiving his rights
and preferring to take his chances to get better sleep,
that 's none of the government 's business. I 'd rather see
officers of government prosecuted for interfering in private matters.

aidan wrote:
Quote:
But how would this play out in a court of law if doctors were absolved of their professional responsibility to actually monitor and control the controlled substances they have access to purely dependent upon WHAT THEY SAY their patients wanted?
Again, what if this doctor's wife were the person who ended up dead? Would you still absolve him of his responsibility because he explained, 'She wanted it - she asked me for it...I explained the risks and she said she didn't care''?

It is the function of juries to decide what to believe,
based upon the evidence presented b4 them. In the event of
insufficient evidence to decide: defendant wins.

aidan wrote:
Quote:

If MJ had contracted for an assisted suicide - so be it -
I'm with you- that 'd have been his business.
Although if the doctor had assisted him in a state where that's illegal - he'd have to face the music.

If I were on the jury, he 'd not get convicted.



aidan wrote:
Quote:

Because we as laypeople do have to be able to trust that our medical professionals
are not knowingly participating in encouraging and abetting drug addiction and death
by overdose in the general population- don't we?

Yes, we DON 'T. We have a natural, inalienable right
to become drug addicts, or to commit suicide, tho I don 't recommend either.
We have the natural right to engage in self-destructive behavior.
That is none of government 's business.
We did not create government to interfere with that.
It can only do so by usurpation.




aidan wrote:
Quote:
And if that's what they're doing - do we really want them to have access to all these drugs-
and carte blanche to distribute them, not only as they see fit - but as their DRUG ADDICTED patients desire?

YES.
That 's what it means to live in a free country.
(I, for one, will have nothing to do with those drugs,
which I consider poison.)



aidan wrote:
Quote:

He aided and abetted MJ in his addiction the first time he picked up the needle and injected him.
He sold his personal and professional ethics for 150,000 a month -
which may not be illegal- but he injected someone with a lethal dose
of a controlled substance and that is illegal.

I have a hunch that a certain dope addict wanted it that way.
Pamela Rosa
 
  0  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 07:16 am
Quote:
Dr. Conrad Murray needed a big payday when he became Michael Jackson's personal physician last spring.

The Las Vegas cardiologist owed at least $780,000 for settlements against his business, outstanding mortgage payments on his house, delinquent student loans, child support and credit cards. And that doesn't include the $68,000 the distributor of an energy drink says Murray, a one-time business associate, owes for skipping out on payments.

Court records chronicling Murray's woes in Las Vegas, where authorities searched his home this week as part of their manslaughter investigation into Jackson's death, help explain why. Beyond basking in a celebrity's aura, Murray might have jumped at the $150,000-a-month Jackson's promoter was prepared to pay him to keep the star healthy through a series of concerts in London.

Murray hooked on with Jackson in May, as his bleak financial picture threatened to worsen. He already was under court orders to pay more than $363,000 for equipment for his heart clinic and $71,000 in student loans dating to the 1980s, a judgment that hit in April. Two lawsuits claiming he owes $240,000 more for unpaid equipment are pending in Nevada courts.

And Murray had appeared unable or unwilling to settle more modest debts -- a nearly $3,700 judgment for not paying child support and two recent credit card company claims totaling $2,600.

Murray's 5,268-square-foot home near the 18th hole of a golf course offers no refuge -- he's in "pre-foreclosure" after failing to make payments on his $1.66 million loan, records show. He stopped paying the $15,000-per-month mortgage in December and could lose the home by November, said Mary Hunt, the foreclosure officer handling the case for Stewart Title company.

Authorities investigating Jackson's death at his rented Los Angeles mansion believe Murray gave the star a fatal dose of the anesthetic propofol to help him sleep, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. Propofol is commonly used for surgeries and is not meant as a sleep agent or to be given in private homes. Because of its potency, only trained anesthesia professionals are supposed to administer it and patients are to be constantly monitored.
Police have not labeled Murray a suspect but have said in search warrants they are seeking evidence he committed manslaughter and prescribed drugs to "an addict," an apparent reference to Jackson.

Murray, 56, has not spoken publicly since Jackson's June 25 death. His lawyer, Ed Chernoff, has said the doctor did not prescribe anything that "should have" killed Jackson.

Neither Jackson nor AEG Live, the promoter for the London concerts, paid Murray for the two months the doctor worked for the pop star, according to Chernoff.

"Dr. Murray has lost the ability to make a living as a result of this investigation," he said. "His hope is he can forestall foreclosure until he can once again begin working as a doctor."

Murray's financial background could become an important part of the case, if prosecutors file charges, said Rebecca Lonergan, a University of Southern California law professor and former federal prosecutor of health care fraud cases.

"It does potentially provide evidence of good motive for financial-based crimes, including prescribing when there is not a medical necessity," she said.

Murray's cresting financial woes fit into a history of money problems. He filed for bankruptcy in California in 1992 and had a string of tax liens from Sacramento and San Bernardino counties as well as Maricopa County, Arizona, between 1993 and 2003.

Several years ago, Murray branched out, striking up a deal with John Thomas, distributor of an energy drink called Pit Bull. Thomas said in 2005 and 2006 Murray had the rights to distribute the drink in Trinidad and Tobago, the Caribbean island nation where Murray lived and worked before coming to the United States in the 1980s to study medicine.

The drink never gained popularity there. Murray paid his bill for a first shipment, then didn't pay for three subsequent shipments, Thomas said.

Though Thomas said Murray owes him $68,000, he remained friendly with the doctor and spoke briefly with him days before Jackson's death, when he invited Murray to the opening of a mixed martial arts gym in Las Vegas. Murray told him he was out of town and wouldn't be able to attend.

"You always think you know a guy," Thomas said. "All the dirt is coming out now."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,535872,00.html?sPage=fnc/us/crime
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 2 Aug, 2009 08:07 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I said:
Quote:
Why? Are you in receipt of facts that others of us aren't?

Did Michael Jackson tell the doctor -
'I don't care how dangerous this is to me - and I don't care how much you have to give me-
just give me enough to put me to sleep- even if it might mean forever'?
Is there a letter of some sort that Michael Jackson left?
(I have to admit I've stopped following the case, so I'm sincerely asking- I don't know).


To which David answered:
Quote:
Yeah, he called me the nite b4 and told me that.
Laughing Laughing
Who called you the night b4 - MJ or the doctor?

Quote:
His nurse said that he told her that his veins were too small n hard to find,
while she was looking for one.

Oh, so keeping him drugged up and addicted was a group effort...

Quote:
It is the function of juries to decide what to believe,
based upon the evidence presented b4 them. In the event of
insufficient evidence to decide: defendant wins.

now that you put it that way - I do remember hearing that somewhere - innocent until proven guilty or something like that..

Quote:
Yes, we DON 'T. We have a natural, inalienable right
to become drug addicts, or to commit suicide, tho I don 't recommend either.
We have the natural right to engage in self-destructive behavior.

Granted - but isn't there some law against other people participating actively in the destruction of another person?
And if that someone is a doctor and is helping out by providing and administering the drugs...I don't know David- I can't go along with the fact that that's okay.
Think about it from this perspective. What if Michael Jackson was having an operation in the hospital and yes, of course he wanted and asked for the anaesthetic to be administered as a matter of course - but the anesthesiologist flubs the dose and kills him on the table. Even in a situation like that - the doctor will be held civilly, if not criminally responsible- believe you me.

Quote:
That 's what it means to live in a free country.
(I, for one, will have nothing to do with those drugs,
which I consider poison.)

Yeah, me neither/ or me too.


 

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