11
   

Class warfare and the Left

 
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 06:23 pm
@parados,
A quote from your link:

Quote:

care should be taken in comparing the income levels at which the top rate applies, not only because of the effects of inflation, but because the definition of the income base has varied over time.



You should read your own disclaimers, don't you think?

A more accurate reflection of the US economy during WWII:

Quote:

However, these agencies were often quite successful in achieving their respective, narrower aims. The Department of the Treasury, for instance, was remarkably successful at generating money to pay for the war, including the first general income tax in American history and the famous "war bonds" sold to the public. Beginning in 1940, the government extended the income tax to virtually all Americans and began collecting the tax via the now-familiar method of continuous withholdings from paychecks (rather than lump-sum payments after the fact). The number of Americans required to pay federal taxes rose from 4 million in 1939 to 43 million in 1945. With such a large pool of taxpayers, the American government took in $45 billion in 1945, an enormous increase over the $8.7 billion collected in 1941 but still far short of the $83 billion spent on the war in 1945. Over that same period, federal tax revenue grew from about 8 percent of GDP to more than 20 percent. Americans who earned as little as $500 per year paid income tax at a 23 percent rate, while those who earned more than $1 million per year paid a 94 percent rate. The average income tax rate peaked in 1944 at 20.9 percent ("Fact Sheet: Taxes").

http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/tassava.WWII


No capital gain taxes then, no medicare, etc.

Again, these taxes were not aimed at individuals for punitive reasons, as this congress just did with their 90% tax. You seem to be afraid to address this point.

Why?
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:35 pm
@A Lone Voice,
The class warfare had been intensified by GWB with his huge tax cuts for people who did not need the extra money and the deliberate gutting of the Social Security by having pensions diverted into the Wall Strip ..,er Street stock market, social services destroyed by deliberate overspending on war, defense spending to prop up defense contractors but not soldiers as they are not properly equipped with armor and veterans benefits cut. This is class warfare.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:36 pm
@A Lone Voice,
What point?
That you are confused about making more than $250K and working for AIG?

OK.. Let me address it. You are confused .



But as to the 90% tax rate, let me remind you what you said.
Quote:


Tell me about a point of time in the history of our country when congress has proposed a 90% tax on any individual?

Context in this issue doesn’t matter. For any congress to do this threatens our very liberty.

What income was subject to that tax is irrelevant based on your statement so the disclaimer is pointless in using it to defend your statement. There was no point in bringing it up because you merely said at no point in US history had this occurred. For almost 20 years Congress had imposed a tax rate of almost or more than 90% on incomes. Something you claimed would threaten our liberty. Suddenly you want to make context the issue by talking about what income was subject to that tax in the past. Does context matter or where you just talking out of your ass when you said it didn't?

From your quote
Quote:
while those who earned more than $1 million per year paid a 94 percent rate.


A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:42 pm
@parados,
Again, these taxes were not aimed at individuals for punitive reasons, as this congress just did with their 90% tax. You seem to be afraid to address this point.

Why?
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:45 pm
@talk72000,
Quote:

The class warfare had been intensified by GWB with his huge tax cuts for people who did not need the extra money...


Says you? The govt? Who has the right to tell me or any other American how much money we need?

Except Obama, of course, and the left wing of the Dem party.

Just curious, where is your 'too much money' cutoff? $250 K a year? Higher? Lower?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:45 pm
@A Lone Voice,
What is the title of your thread Lone Voice?

Quote:
Class warfare and the Left

Are you saying the AIG folks are a class?

Are you saying your original strawman is left by the way side?

The 90% tax is not part of a class warfare argument since it isn't targeted at people because they belong to a class. It is targeted at bonuses only. If the persons made $5million outside the bonus they wouldn't be paying 90% tax on that income.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:52 pm
@A Lone Voice,
There is no 90% tax on more than $250K a year. In fact the highest tax rate won't be paid by those making more than $250K a year.
There is only a return to the same tax rate that existed 9 years ago. No one was harmed at that point. Why do you think a return to that rate is class warfare?

If you think it is class warfare then shouldn't you be angry at the people that passed the law that causes the rates to revert after 2010 rather than the people that fail to overturn that law?
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:55 pm
@parados,
No, I'm saying the left has decided $250 K a year is what people should be 'allowed' to earn before they are taxed excessively. As I've documented.

Again, this congress has applied 90% punitive taxes to a group of individuals. Key word here is PUNITIVE, in case you missed it.

Do you believe the Fed govt should apply punitive taxes to anyone in this manner?

Remember, four years from now it could be a religious- right type congress applying such a tax to those who refuse to donate to churches, or some other such nonsense. Only takes five votes on the court to make it so.

The context doesn’t matter. A congress that will tax punitively in this fashion is out of control.

Left or right, tyrants are tyrants. Unless you are so partisan you're blind to it...
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:56 pm
@A Lone Voice,
excessively? Oh please. You haven't documented anything other than to claim 90% tax rate which isn't even close to what those making more than $250K will pay when the Bush law sunsets the rates.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 07:59 pm
@A Lone Voice,
You have done nothing but build strawmen, confuse your points, and demagogue the issue LV.

The 90% AIG tax has nothing to do with class warfare.
The sunset built into the Bush law is NOT Obama's doing.

1. I think the 90% tax on the bonuses is silly.
2. The 90% tax on bonuses has nothing to do with your class warfare BS.
3. You confuse your points hoping no one will notice.

A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 08:08 pm
@parados,
Actually, have you read the links I provided?

I believe I set the stage pretty well.

Where is this $250 K figure coming from? Please tell me your version of what is occurring, then.

You believe the 90% tax on the bonus is "silly."

Really, that's the best you can do?
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 10:54 pm
@A Lone Voice,
In a democracy all citizens have a say and all have a right to 'pursue happiness' as a constitutional right. By destroying the social network of working people who are in the majority is an act of class warfare and undemocratic and unconstitutional as it denies their right to happiness. Starving the funds for Social Security, Healthcare, conducting an illegal war, sending the poor, who signed up for the Reserves or National Guards, to war zones, etc. is class war fare but hypocrite GWB crying that Democrats are conducting class warfare when they denounce his agenda.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 12:10 am
@msolga,
Well, as I said in my first post here: I'm not a US citizen, so I won't even attempt to speak specifically about the US context. And as the discussion (understandably) is now much more in the US context, I'll bow out. (Though I'll keep reading, anyway.) But nothing that has been said here so far has caused me to change the view I first expressed here.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 05:22 am
@talk72000,
That's pure BS.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 06:21 am
@A Lone Voice,
Yes, I have read your links. It seems you have NOT.

Quote:
The bill would impose a 90 percent tax on bonuses given to employees with family incomes above $250,000

The tax is ONLY on the bonus, not on every dollar over $250K.

Even Obama came out against that 90% tax on the bonus which further undercuts your argument.

The $250K figure is the cut off at which the tax will revert to its former tax levels when the sunset in the GOP passed bill occurs. Below that figure, the tax laws will be changed again to not allow the sunset Bush signed into law.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:44 am
@parados,
parados wrote:



Even Obama came out against that 90% tax on the bonus which further undercuts your argument.


Only because his teleprompter told him to do so.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:27 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
So now we see class warfare on a level never experienced before in the US.

Mwah. As Parados pointed out, top earners in Eisenhower's day paid 90%+ income tax rates on their regular monthly income. Whereas now the only thing that's remotely in the same ballpark is a tax specifically and solely on bonuses (and only on some specific bonuses at that) - which is proposed by the House but not favoured by Obama, as Parados also points out.

As for the rhetorics, Obama's Democrats sound like conservatives compared to some of the language used by previous US Presidents. For example, here's FDR in his inauguration speech in 1933:

Quote:
.. the rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed, through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. ..

Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence. They know only the rules of a generation of self-seekers. ..

The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. ..

Recognition of the falsity of material wealth as the standard of success goes hand in hand with the abandonment of the false belief that public office and high political position are to be valued only by the standards of pride of place and personal profit; and there must be an end to a conduct in banking and in business which too often has given to a sacred trust the likeness of callous and selfish wrongdoing. ..

we require two safeguards against a return of the evils of the old order; there must be a strict supervision of all banking and credits and investments; there must be an end to speculation with other people's money ..


0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:33 am
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
Again, these taxes were not aimed at individuals for punitive reasons, as this congress just did with their 90% tax. You seem to be afraid to address this point.

Actually, the point you made was:

A Lone Voice wrote:
Tell me about a point of time in the history of our country when congress has proposed a 90% tax on any individual?

Umm, lots of times, obviously - it supported a 90% tax rate, not just on a select class of bonuses but on regular income, on a whole stratum of top incomes through a swath of postwar history. You seem to be afraid to acknowledge this point.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:39 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

You might want to check the historical tax rates before you go off on your "threatening our very liberty" jag.

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

You will see that from 1944 until 1963 the highest rate was near or over 90% and was as high as 92% for part of that time.

Yeah, Eisenhower was a commie.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 02:53 pm
Have you heard the latest tax rules?

Anyone who receives a bonus has to file using form 1040FU.
 

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