11
   

Class warfare and the Left

 
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 12:04 pm
@msolga,
Quote:

I'm not a US citizen, so I won't even attempt to speak specifically about the US context ..... but in my own country I get pretty tired of the constant references to "class warfare" or "the politics of envy" (generally from pretty well-off folk seeking to hold onto financial advantage, including government subsidies which support their particular interests) whenever any new government initiative attempts to address some very glaring differences in how people in the same country experience life.
I don't think it's OK that some people get second or third rate medical treatment because of their financial situation. I don't think it's OK that that bright students don't have the opportunity to continue their education because of impoverished family circumstances. I think any country which doesn't offer some support to these students is under-valuing a precious resource, to the detriment of the whole country. (Just to give you a couple of examples.)
So what is so terrible about the notion that everyone living in the same country is considered - & treated - as a valued part of that community, no matter what their financial status? What is wrong with treating poorer people with dignity & giving them some assistance when they need it? (For starters, you'd probably reduce the crime statistics in the ranks for the poor. And they are hardly likely to become wealthy as a result of a bit of government assistance!)That's got to be be good for the whole community!) And what exactly is wrong with treating everyone within the community as part of that community, rather than individuals only looking out for their own, particular advantage?

ps ... you think that (US) $250 K per year isn't very, very comfortable?


One of my best friends came to this country at age 12; he didn't speak a word of English. Today he owns a bunch of homes he uses as rental property, owns his own business, and employees about a dozen people.

He had the opportunity to do this.

Do we need fixes to our system of medical care? Sure. As far as 'treating' our poor with dignity, how condescending is it to keep the poor in their own neighborhoods, paying them tokens each month they can barely live on while forcing them to attend horrible schools?

Why the opposition to vouchers, where inner city parents could send their kids to schools of their choice? Talk about taking away the hope of a generation. I agree with you about bright students; why is the left allowing them to wilt away?

In CA, most cities have imposed building restrictions, where poor families have no chance of affordable housing in the city where they live. In San Francisco and other Bay Area cities, the minority population has dropped; maybe that's the way the rich, elite liberals want it?

We need jobs. Real jobs, not pretend govt work. In CA, only eight percent of the billions being sent here from the 'stimulus' bill - or spending bill - only eight percent is going towards infrastructure. Wasn't it supposed to be a lot more, according to Obama and the dems in congress?

The rest will be spent on one to two year fixes in entitlement spending. No word on what the state will do when that money is gone.

Re $250 K a year: Who cares if it is comfortable or not? Do YOU believe that should be the limit a person is allowed to earn?

0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 12:09 pm
@parados,
FYI, I'm doing my best not to become involved in pissing matches any longer.

Any chance you can address the topic without personal attacks and insults?

It makes for much more interesting conversation. I'd be happy to address your remarks if you are able to do so...
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 01:27 pm
@A Lone Voice,
My first sentence DID address it..

You provided nothing but a strawman. Without evidence of the Obama admin actually saying what you accuse them of, there isn't much to talk about other than your tactics.
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 01:29 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

parados wrote:

Our founding fathers were for elected officials making the decisions.


Elected by tax paying land owners.



The constitution places no such requirement on the government.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 02:12 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

H2O MAN wrote:

parados wrote:

Our founding fathers were for elected officials making the decisions.


Elected by tax paying land owners.



The constitution places no such requirement on the government.


Their is no constitutional right to vote in a presidential election.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 02:12 pm
@parados,
Obama is the Strawman.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 02:19 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
Elected by tax paying land owners.

Quote:
Their is no constitutional right to vote in a presidential election.


Are you now arguing with yourself H2O?
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 04:58 pm
These are the sorts of reports we've been receiving in the Australian media about the dire circumstances of the poor, & newly-poor, in the USA. If these reports are accurate (& I have no reason to believe otherwise) I can't believe that some people appear to be quibbling about assisting the people whose lives have been so seriously affected. I honestly can't believe that some folk here are carrying on with their their partisan anti-Obama stuff while your nation experiences this upheaval. What alternative would you suggest to what Obama is proposing? This is an urgent situation, surely? And surely some urgent government assistance is to be expected at a time like this? If it means the wealthy have less cash in their pockets, well, so what? :

Silence is far from golden on Main St, USA
By Kim Landers/Oz ABC

http://blogs.abc.net.au/dispatches/images/2009/03/18/mainstdillon.jpg

There are plenty of signs that the United States is in a deep recession.

Quote:
More than 12 million people are out of work.

Five million have lost their job in the past year alone.

American car companies are teetering on the brink of failure.

Trillions of dollars are being dished out to prop up America's financial system and to try to jumpstart the economy.

But I've discovered it's the silence that's one of the biggest signs of how much trouble the United States is in.

Silence as 3,000 people line up to try to renegotiate their mortgages and stop their homes from being foreclosed on.

Silence as dozens of people file into an unemployment office, many for the first time.

Silence when you walk down the main street of small towns like Timmonsville and Dillon in South Carolina.

It's as if people are worn out from what they're enduring.

They're not grumbling about having to queue for ages, they're just trying to keep their home or get a job.

South Carolina has the second-worst unemployment rate in the nation at 10.4 per cent.

Only Michigan is worse. And both states are well above the national unemployment rate of 8.1 per cent.

South Carolina has been hard hit by the decline of the tobacco and textile industries.

But as the manager of the unemployment office in the capital Columbia told me, in his 19 years on the job, he's never seen the situation as bad as this. ...<cont>


http://blogs.abc.net.au/dispatches/2009/03/silence-is-far.html
BigTexN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 07:00 pm
@msolga,
msolga, this photo looks like all the hick town downtowns in Texas...only they have been empty since the 1930's.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Mar, 2009 07:09 pm
@BigTexN,
I can't say with any certainty exactly where it is, BigTexN. Obviously. The photograph is from the link provided at the bottom of the article I posted. AM, a well respected radio news/current affairs program on the ABC (Oz national broadcaster) has been covering the impact of the recession on the US. Lots of coverage from rural areas & small towns, as well as the cities. A lot of it just talking with the people who live in these places. It's been very informative. Would you agree with the text of the article, though?
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:12 am
@msolga,
Quote:

These are the sorts of reports we've been receiving in the Australian media about the dire circumstances of the poor, & newly-poor, in the USA. If these reports are accurate (& I have no reason to believe otherwise) I can't believe that some people appear to be quibbling about assisting the people whose lives have been so seriously affected. I honestly can't believe that some folk here are carrying on with their their partisan anti-Obama stuff while your nation experiences this upheaval. What alternative would you suggest to what Obama is proposing? This is an urgent situation, surely? And surely some urgent government assistance is to be expected at a time like this? If it means the wealthy have less cash in their pockets, well, so what? :



If you are truly paying attention to what Obama and the Democratic Party is doing to this country, then you are aware that they are causing the greatest deficit is the history of the US.

A well known axiom in this country is the govt creates work, while private business creates jobs. There is a difference. The US govt is the most inefficient, bloated, and wasteful organization imaginable; leaving so much of our economy, our health care, our day to day lives in their care will be a recipe for disaster.

A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:23 am
@parados,
Quote:

The only thing new is that seems to be the new strawman you are arguing against. You can nowhere find anyone in the Obama admin saying this. You said it. You made it up out of whole cloth so you could make another ridiculous argument. Big Whoop.



Obama wants to raise taxes on those that make more than $250 K a year.

And this, by the lefty dems in congress:

Quote:

The bill would impose a 90 percent tax on bonuses given to employees with family incomes above $250,000 at American International Group and other companies that have received at least $5 billion in government bailout money. It would apply to any such bonuses issued since Dec. 31.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/House-passes-bill-taxing-AIG-apf-14693850.html


So yeah, I do believe the left has made $250 K the magic number...

Tell me, do you believe Americans should be allowed to make more than this without being taxed at extremely high rates? Or do you agree with the Dems magic number?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:30 am
@A Lone Voice,
I am paying attention, A Lone Voice, and via the media, a long way away from the US. In Australia.

It seems to me that Obama is doing pretty much what other leaders of similar countries are doing. Though the financial situation in the US appears to be far more critical. Seriously, what would you suggest this new administration do in your situation? There are many, many people in dire circumstances. Their situation cannot just be ignored, while "market forces" somehow fix things up, surely?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:46 am
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
So yeah, I do believe the left has made $250 K the magic number...

Tell me, do you believe Americans should be allowed to make more than this without being taxed at extremely high rates? Or do you agree with the Dems magic number?


I think that low rates for the first 1,000% of minimum wage and then 50% of income after that is fair....so $150,000 should be the current dividing line between the tax rates. If the wealthy don't like it then they can figure out a way to create an economy that does a better job of rewarding the lower classes, ie raise the minimum wage.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:56 am
@msolga,
No, Obama is not doing what other countries are doing.

Actually, the countries in Europe are not printing as much money as the US; Obama is asking them to do so, and they are resisting.

Quote:

The Obama administration has urged European nations to do more to restart their economies through financial stimulus.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/22/us/politics/22regulate.html?pagewanted=2


What should the admin do? What they SHOULD HAVE DONE is not pass a $785 billion stimulus, er spending bill that they claimed would go towards infrastructure (roads, bridges, and other job creation type construction).

In reality, it is going to temporary entitlement spending, which is like a hit off the crack pipe; it feels good for a short while, but it really doesn't solve anything.

Look at my thread here to see what is currently happening in California with the Fed stimulus money:

http://able2know.org/topic/130342-1

(Please read the attached news articles)

In the US, we also say, 'As California goes, so goes America.'

What should they (Obama and the Democrats) do now?

Lower taxes. Get out of the way of small business, which is what creates jobs in this country. Cut all govt at all levels, Federal, state, and local. (Way too much waste and bureaucracy in this country.)

But they won't do this, as this goes against everything they believe in.

Obama is not just trying to deal with our recession; he is trying to create massive growth and power in the federal govt. He is attempting to politically reshape the culture of our country to suit his political party behind the ecomomic crisis.

This is why some of us oppose him.

If you have an open mind, I hope you can understand this...
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 01:02 am
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Actually, the countries in Europe are not printing as much money as the US; Obama is asking them to do so, and they are resisting.


true that. Americans want to buy our way out by printing more money, Europe wants to bring the private sector to heal with new regulations upon them. Carrot or stick, which is the correct tool for the job? Stick I think, though the whip would be better.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 12:11 pm
@A Lone Voice,
You titled this thread Class warfare and the Left
then you said the following...
Quote:
What is this new demagoguery by the Obama admin - and the left - of those who make more than $250 K a year?

Quote:

So now we see class warfare on a level never experienced before in the US.



When I point out your statements only create a strawman your defense is this?
Quote:

Obama wants to raise taxes on those that make more than $250 K a year.


Yeah.. You DID create a strawman. Raising taxes on those making more than $250K is NOT class warfare and to claim raising taxes is demagoguery seems to be demagoguery on your part.

But now you introduce another instance of taxation on AIG bonuses. Unless you want to call AIG employees a 'class" it really has no place in your original straw argument.

Quote:

Tell me, do you believe Americans should be allowed to make more than this without being taxed at extremely high rates? Or do you agree with the Dems magic number?
And now you introduce another strawman. The Dems have not introduced any legislation to tax everyone making over $250K at a 90% tax rate. Your arguments are nothing but silliness.
A Lone Voice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 01:09 pm
@parados,
Quote:

And now you introduce another strawman. The Dems have not introduced any legislation to tax everyone making over $250K at a 90% tax rate. Your arguments are nothing but silliness.


Tell me about a point of time in the history of our country when congress has proposed a 90% tax on any individual?

Context in this issue doesn’t matter. For any congress to do this threatens our very liberty.

Now, Obama is proposing limits on executive pay on all financial companies, even those who are not involved with TARP. The Fed govt is going to regulate the pay of private business; doesn't this concern you?

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/03/22/america/22regulate.php

This is as bad as the Bush Admin trashing the Constitution behind the war on terror.

Yet many of you on the left fail to see this because of partisan zeal.

You are really overplaying the straw man card here.

Obama and the left are certainly not letting this 'crisis go to waste,' are they?

Threats to liberty can come from the right and from the left. Reasonable people will recognize this.

This may simply break down to how much power you believe the Fed govt should possess, and how much control they have over our lives, parados. We are probably leagues apart in this.

A Fed that controls the pay of private business and can tax any individual at a 90% rate for punitive reasons, regardless of the reason why, scares me.

So again, yes, Obama and the left have been, and continues, to beat the drum, against 'the rich paying their fair share.'

It started with leveling the playing field and redistributing the wealth, and has continued to our present climate.

And the left is stoking the fire...
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 02:58 pm
@A Lone Voice,
You might want to check the historical tax rates before you go off on your "threatening our very liberty" jag.

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

You will see that from 1944 until 1963 the highest rate was near or over 90% and was as high as 92% for part of that time.


The only one stoking the fire is you LV by making claims that don't hold up under even the most basic of scrutiny. You seem to be so interested in demagoguery that you are willing to ignore facts while manufacturing straw to keep putting in that strawman you have built. No matter how long you weave straw for your strawman, it isn't going to turn into gold for you. Your argument is as invalid now as when you started this thread.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 03:10 pm
Before we have jobs for those that need them, we need industries to have jobs for the masses that need a job. Many of our manufacturing industries were priced out of the US labor market by cheaper overseas labor. So, aside from infrastructure jobs, what industries can fill the void for industries that are no longer employing people in the US. The only thing I can think of is to make the US one big tourist attraction for overseas wealthy. Possibly like on the Disney paradigm - Wall Street Land, Hollywood Land, Cowboy Land, Bible Belt Land, Heartland Land, etc.

If there are any better suggestions, we need them now.
0 Replies
 
 

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