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I'm looking for a situation in history similar to the Holocaust

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:46 pm
There's a reason the Holocaust is often treated like the epitome of evil, there's really just not a lot out there that comes close to it in characteristics and scale. Sure, there have been great evils and great atrocities but they did not often share the same underlying motivations and those that come close just simply don't come close to the scale of the Holocaust.

You may be using it in a generalized term, thinking of generalized evil and genocide, and if that's the tree you are barking up you should just examine modern examples of genocide. Here:

http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocides.htm

Out of these, I'd say the most similar was Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it never had the chance to reach the same scale that the Holocaust did, and the difference in scale makes comparison largely useless in my opinion.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:58 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Pol Pot probably puts the Serbs to shame, although it was certainly not for want of trying. The difference which is most striking is that the Serbs did not and were not able to export their madness beyond the boundaries of the former Yugoslavia, and Pol Pot was not able to export his madness out of Cambodia. I would say that contemporary informed opinion ranks Pol Pot with Hitler, and the Khmer Rouge with the NSDAP.

Nevertheless, Germany exported their genocide. The SD followed in the wake of the army wherever it went. Beyond that, the war by itself took literally tens of millions of lives (for which Joe Stalin and the Soviet Communist Party bear a good deal of the responsibility). Nine million Germans dead, as well.

No one matches the scale of Hitler and the NSDAP, as RG points out--and no one else has ever successfully exported such a planned genocide.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:01 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Yes, Yugoslavia was a patchwork of nations. There were Serbs inside Croatia, Croatians and Serbs inside Bosnia, Albanians inside Serbia, Albanians inside Macedonia. But even these were intrusions in order to extend one's territory, not to get somewhere deep to destroy someone else.

And many of those Polish Jews originated in Germany, escaped persecutions in the Middle Ages. Some say that after a Mongol invasion, in 1240, south-eastern Poland was so devastated that new settlers were just needed.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:03 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Pol Pot probably puts the Serbs to shame, although it was certainly not for want of trying.


You mean in scale? I'd agree, but I think the Serbs had much more similar motivation. Pol Pot didn't seem to have the ethnic cleansing in mind so much as the agrarian fantasy.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:05 pm
@Setanta,
Have you heard the one that Soviets taught Germans how to build concentration-labor camps? Criminal prisoners over political prisoners - the same pattern. That German troops practiced Blitzkrieg in Russian training grounds in the 1930s when they were not allowed to do so inside Germany (Guderian).
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:13 pm
How about The Armenian Genocide (1915-1917) 800,000 to 1,500,000; Cambodia 1,700,000; and recently Rwanda 800,000 to 1,000,000; and Darfur?
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 02:21 pm
@coluber2001,
Most Polish Jews lived in the south-east, it was as if a separate Jewish-dominated state existed there, many towns where Jews made up 70% of the population. The reddish area in the linked map.
Also further east - the orange area, occupied by Soviets in 1939-41/2.

http://www.polityka.pl/_gAllery/11/25/44/112544/Mapa1.jpg
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 05:08 pm
@literarypoland,
click right here - http://able2know.org/topic/128197-1#post-3541117
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 05:30 pm
Historical precedents?

The European 'colonisation' of the Americas for one.

The use of 'concentration camps' in Sth Africa during the Boer Wars. The rounded up non-combatants for their 'protection' and weren't too bothered when they died.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 06:05 pm
@literarypoland,
literarypoland wrote:

in·cur·sion (in kűrĆzhĂn, -shĂn), n.
1. a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, esp. a sudden one; raid.

The plan for Jews was fast genocide, the plan for Poles, Belorussians - to turn us into slaves, and gradually replace us with German settlers - over several decades.

I'm trying to establish facts about telephones. There were working phones in Warsaw, also inside the Jewish ghetto, under occupation. There were phones all over the country, accessible for civilians. I just wonder about international calls and long-distance calls between cities - probably were blocked. There were even calls between the ghetto and the Polish parts of Warsaw.


Is it possible you are incorrectly using the word "telephone" to describe telegraph or radio systems?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 10:46 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Oh, i'd agree with that one hundred percent. If possible, Pol Pot might even have been battier than Adolf . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 10:48 pm
For all the people here who are peddling **** about concentration camps, and who taught whom . . . concentration camps, with that name, were invented by the Spanish in Cuba in the 1890s. The English in South Africa were just copying the technique, and military regimes (which is what the English had going on in South Africa in 1899-1900) are never slow to copy "successful" models. The Russians didn't need to teach anybody else, and the NSDAP didn't need to be taught, they already had the technique down pat.
0 Replies
 
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:09 am
@Zippo,
Hey, some drastic photos there.
You claim that Israel is using Nazi methods now? This would be a giggle of history. Of course, you could add photos of Israelis killed in rocket attacks, but the numbers of dead ARE disproportionate. It's because Israelis live in constant panic, attacked now from three sides, in fear of being overwhelmed. What are the population growth rates in Israel and in Gaza, West Bank?
I always wonder why Nazis documented their atrocities in photos with such zeal.
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:21 am
@Mr Stillwater,
Some high-ranking Nazis were connected with German colonialism in Africa. For example Goering's father "had been the first Governor-General of the German protectorate of South West Africa (modern day Namibia)".
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:25 am
@Butrflynet,
telephone = phones
Warsaw phone book, 1938
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/gdc/scd0001/2002/20020611001wa/20020611001wa.pdf
I don't go deeper into the telegraph or the radio, assuming that Germans would cut off as much communications as possible.
0 Replies
 
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:39 am
@Green Witch,
The jewels and money - you believe it was some sort of Klondike for Germans? Gold rush? Some Jews were rich, but many very poor. Businessmen, traders, artisans (tailors), peddlars.
0 Replies
 
literarypoland
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:42 am
@Setanta,
<<the Polish "jokes" that Hollywood and certain left-wing media has pushed over the years especially when Poland was starting to resist the Soviet Union which Hollywood has historic sympathies for.>>http://able2know.org/topic/121548-1
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 03:49 am
@literarypoland,
Quote:
Polish "jokes"


Sorry. It was common to make jokes about people from other countries long before there were motion pictures. Always popular in the United States were ethnic slurs about the Irish and Jews. Now, don't get me started about African-Americans.......
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 04:14 am
Jews? Did I say Jews? No. I actually meant Native Americans or the Amish or the Canadians. No need to jump down my throat because of the 'J' word.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 04:24 am
@literarypoland,
Göring was born at the sanatorium Marienbad in Rosenheim, Bavaria. His father Heinrich Ernst Göring (31 October 1839 " 7 December 1913) had been the first Governor-General of the German protectorate of South West Africa (modern day Namibia)[2] as well as being a former cavalry officer and member of the German consular service.

Göring´s father died 1913 how can he then have been connected with the high-ranking Nazis?
 

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