Fri 23 Jan, 2009 03:23 am
I'm sure there were many such cases, as always. Maybe in antiquity, or in Asia, but there are always precedents.
Country A (Germany) attacks country B (Poland), but concentrates not only on subduing country B, but also on massacres against a (large) minority C living quite peacefully in country B.
Jews made up only about 2% of the German population, but in Poland there were 3.4 million Jews in a population of 27 million. Almost all the Jews died (plus many brought from other countries), and also 3 million ethnic Poles, especially in the west and in Warsaw. Jews were Polish citizens, spoke Polish, occupied many important posts (though maybe not in the strict elite; but many mainstream writers were Jewish; and about 50 Jews were killed before the war by right-wingers, this must be admitted). Many Poles hid Jews, though it was punishable by death, many were indifferent. Many of those right-wingers became victims of Germans, so that they changed their views during the war. And there were several pogroms during the war where Poles killed Jews, usually because Jews were pro-Communist.
OK, 35 million people in Poland in 1939. 27 million is the number from around 1920.
Hi, LP . . .
I'm looking for a situation in history similar to the Holocaust
Good luck . . . i doubt that you will find one.
Israel attacking Hezbollah camps inside Lebanon?
I know, the Jews were not aggressive in any way. Just sth to start with.
The Israeli government's policies since 1947 are disgusting to me. That, however, does not authorize a comparison with the NSDAP, and in particular, with the SD and the death camps.
In fact, Hezbollah was created, by the Persian Revolutionary Guard, because Israel had invaded the Lebanon, and came into existence four or five years after "Operation Litani" by the IDF (1978). The horrors in the refugee camps in the Lebanon were a direct result of Operation Litani, and the presence of the PLO in the Lebanon was the justification for that invasion. The murders in the camps took place before the foundation of Hezbollah, were directed against Palestinians, and were largely carried out by the Christian Maronite militia, under the political umbrella of the Phalange, acting as proxies for Israel. In fact, it could reasonably be argued that the foundation of Hezbollah was a response to that massacre. However, i don't personally believe that. Rather, i believe that Hezbollah arose in response to the Isreali "re-invasion" of the Lebanon in 1982, "Operation Galilee."
Israeli actions don't even remotely approach the scale of the death camps run by the SD with the authority of the NSDAP. The closest thing in history, in terms of scale, would be the horrors of the very short-lived and shaky Mongol "empire" in the 13th century. Even then, the Mongols were out after loot--they wanted everything they could steal, and they wanted to lay as much of Eurasia under tribute as they could. They only committed slaughters on a large scale when they met resistance. Anyone who knelt to them and paid the tribute would likely only suffer the ancillary rapine and casual murder which always takes place on the periphery of any invading horde. The Mongols had no policy of consistent genocide.
The only other example of a consistent, concerted policy of extirpation which comes to mind is the war between the Christian Franks and the "Pagan" Saxons of the 8th and 9th centuries--and in particular as prosecuted in the reign of Charlemagne. The Saxons (a loose term, much as was the term Frank) were slaughtered in their thousands for more than 50 years, simply because they were "Pagan." They responded in like-kind whenever possible. But even that was a border war, no invasions of one another's territory were more than extended raids, and took place for a season and no longer.
The NSDAP's program worked behind the lines of battle, and was not a military action--it was conscious, concerted genocide carried out against Jews, Slavs and "Gypsies," and not only is the scale unmatched in history, so is the ruthlessness. The "Pagan" Saxon could convert, the victim in the path of the Mongols could conspicuously not resist, and pay the tribute. There was no appeal from the sentence of death of the SD.
in·cur·sion (in kűrĆzhĂn, -shĂn), n.
1. a hostile entrance into or invasion of a place or territory, esp. a sudden one; raid.
The plan for Jews was fast genocide, the plan for Poles, Belorussians - to turn us into slaves, and gradually replace us with German settlers - over several decades.
I'm trying to establish facts about telephones. There were working phones in Warsaw, also inside the Jewish ghetto, under occupation. There were phones all over the country, accessible for civilians. I just wonder about international calls and long-distance calls between cities - probably were blocked. There were even calls between the ghetto and the Polish parts of Warsaw.
what are you on son, dope?
Incursion and telephones, huh? You've lost me altogether here. The title of the thread is: "I'm looking for a situation in history similar to the Holocaust." I can see no earthly reason to assume that telephones have any significant relationship to that particular holocaust. Well, good luck--i have not the least idea what you're on about.
It's like bandits attacking a house, terrorizing the family, cutting off the phone line (and confiscating cell phones, and computers), but their real aim is someone who rents a room in this house, and that man they kill at once.
Sure, Buddy, whatever you say . . .
Would any of the Crusades meet the criteria of the original question of the post? I thought a "popular" goal of the Crusades was to kill all infidels (Jews and Muslims)? The anecdotal story is that Jerusalem was awash in blood, or some such thought. To go off to a Crusade in those times, I thought, was at minimum a decade of leaving one's country. It seemed to have organization, and stated goals, and allowed for a lot of mayhem. Perhaps, since this is history that many genteel people would like to forget, we do not hear much of this period of over zealousness?
in the crusades they used text and instant messenger more than telephones
That's a good point . . . i forgot to mention that the Mongols cut the telegraph lines wherever they went . . . it totally spooked people who would wake up to find their city surrounded and all of their sheep raped . . .
Are you perhaps a dedicated idiot? Do you work at it? Study for it?
Crusades were similar only in that Jerusalem was inside Muslim territory, but it was still one side against another.
I'm rather thinking along the lines of guerillas operating from the territory of another (neighboring) country.
Maybe Hitler saw all Jews as Communists, and Poland, Lithuania as countries harboring Communist guerillas.
Around 1985, I remember South Africa made raids into several neighboring countries which supported Communists inside SA.
Because: "The ANC and PAC established military groups in neighboring countries and launched a program of sabotage against the government."
Another parallel: all the recent American raids against terrorists harbored by Taleban, Somalia, ?Pakistan.
There has been nothing on the scale of the Holocaust in recorded history, but Hitler emulated (admired?) the Armenian genocide that started 1915. He thought of it as "the perfect crime".
I have a little (almost) first hand information for you LP. Plenty Poles were happy to kill Jews, or turn them over to the SS, not because they were Communists, but so they could steal their property - maybe even their phones.
Yes, there was even the Armenian speech at a closed meeting with officers just days before the war started. Hitler compared Armenians probably rather to Jews than to all Poles.
Armenians were an obstacle for Turks in creating a pan-Turkic empire (Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan). But it was destroying a rebellious minority in your own country, one desiring autonomy.
Poles didn't kill Jews just like that, there were several pogroms where around 2000 Jews died - because they were thought to be pro-Soviet. Jewish property was confiscated by Germans for the German treasury.
Jesus Christ . . . the crusades were not about genocide. The killing of the Jews was not about communism. The killing of Jews, Slavs and Gypsies is a crime unparalleled in human history. There has been absolutely nothing like it, at any time.
Where the hell do people come up with horseshit like this?
I already know it's pointless to argue the point LP, but my family was very directly involved with the event. I know from one witness and survivors in my family that their town was looted by the local Poles (some of them considered friends and customers) and they volunteered to help the SS round up the Jews who were being forced out their homes and businesses. Perhaps the SS ran off with the jewels and money, but the last thing my relative remembers seeing, from the back of the truck he was sitting in, was his Polish neighbors coming out of his house carrying a chair, some curtains and a painting. A Polish family moved into the house at some point and that is who owns it to this day. You have your history and I have mine.
Let's remember that Germans played Poles against Jews, e.g. publishing newspapers for Poles containing anti-Jewish propaganda, and newspapers for Jews containing anti-Polish propaganda.
Is it all based only on witnesses' oral testimonies?