6
   

LET GAZA LIVE! - a global outcry

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:31 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Who cares about whether they mention me as an authority?

Do they contradict what I've said or not?


Well yes, actually they sorta do. (Now I'm wondering how old you are)


You somehow forgot to provide a cite (or even a description of the point they supposedly differ from me on).

Just another vague claim that "they disagree with me" without actually pointing out any disagreement.

I bet claiming "an authority disagrees with you" without actually referencing the supposed disagreement counts as a logical fallacy of some sort.




msolga wrote:
I repeat: Read up & find out what's actually happened in Gaza during this Israeli assault. It might be an eye opener.


I already know what happened.
0 Replies
 
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:31 am
@oralloy,
You are deluded.


If you want to defend Israel's right to exterminate Gazans - let's hear it.

Your refusal to believe what you are reading and seeing, is not our problem.

If you want to start a thread called "The media are liars - the BBC are filming it all in a studio in London - that's fake blood " - go right ahead.
We'd love to hear your evidence for a world wide conspiracy in favour of the Arabs Semites! ha

And stop trying to use that one (anti-Semite) on people - it doesn't wash.

BOTH sides are Semites. But you know that already, don't you?





Meanwhile, Caoimhe Butterly is an Irish human rights activist who has been working in Jabaliya and Gaza City as a volunteer with ambulance services during this siege. (Yes she is there right now)
She wrote a report which has now been published in Counter Punch. Here it is.

She can be contacted at [email protected]
(If you want to write to her, and ask her for more 'facts')

Quote:
January 16-18, 2009

A Report From Gaza

Terribly Bloodied, Still Breathing

By CAOIMHE BUTTERLY

Gaza

The morgues of Gaza's hospitals are over-flowing. The bodies in their blood-soaked white shrouds cover the entire floor space of the Shifa hospital morgue. Some are intact, most horribly deformed, limbs twisted into unnatural positions, chest cavities exposed, heads blown off, skulls crushed in. Family members wait outside to identify and claim a brother, husband, father, mother, wife, child. Many of those who wait their turn have lost numerous family members and loved ones.

Blood is everywhere. Hospital orderlies hose down the floors of operating rooms, bloodied bandages lie discarded in corners, and the injured continue to pour in: bodies lacerated by shrapnel, burns, bullet wounds. Medical workers, exhausted and under siege, work day and night and each life saved is seen as a victory over the predominance of death.

The streets of Gaza are eerily silent- the pulsing life and rhythm of markets, children, fishermen walking down to the sea at dawn brutally stilled and replaced by an atmosphere of uncertainty, isolation and fear. The ever-present sounds of surveillance drones, F16s, tanks and Apaches are listened to acutely as residents try to guess where the next deadly strike will be- which house, school, clinic, mosque, governmental building or community centre will be hit next and how to move before it does. That there are no safe places- no refuge for vulnerable human bodies- is felt acutely. It is a devastating awareness for parents- that there is no way to keep their children safe.

As we continue to accompany the ambulances, joining Palestinian paramedics as they risk their lives, daily, to respond to calls from those with no other life-line, our existence becomes temporarily narrowed down and focused on the few precious minutes that make the difference between life and death. With each new call received as we ride in ambulances that careen down broken, silent roads, sirens and lights blaring, there exists a battle of life over death. We have learned the language of the war that the Israelis are waging on the collective captive population of Gaza- to distinguish between the sounds of the weaponry used, the timing between the first missile strikes and the inevitable second- targeting those that rush to tend to and evacuate the wounded, to recognize the signs of the different chemical weapons being used in this onslaught, to overcome the initial vulnerability of recognizing our own mortality.

Though many of the calls received are to pick up bodies, not the wounded, the necessity of affording the dead a dignified burial drives the paramedics to face the deliberate targeting of their colleagues and comrades- thirteen killed while evacuating the wounded, fourteen ambulances destroyed- and to continue to search for the shattered bodies of the dead to bring home to their families.

Last night, while sitting with paramedics in Jabaliya refugee camp, drinking tea and listening to their stories, we received a call to respond to the aftermath of a missile strike. When we arrived at the outskirts of the camp where the attack had taken place the area was filled with clouds of dust, torn electricity lines, slabs of concrete and open water pipes gushing water into the street. Amongst the carnage of severed limbs and blood we pulled out the body of a young man, his chest and face lacerated by shrapnel wounds, but alive- conscious and moaning.

As the ambulance sped him through the cold night we applied pressure to his wounds, the warmth of his blood seeping through the bandages reminder of the life still in him. He opened his eyes in answer to my questions and closed them again as Muhammud, a volunteer paramedic, murmured "ayeesh, nufuss"- live, breathe- over and over to him. He lost consciousness as we arrived at the hospital, received into the arms of friends who carried him into the emergency room. He, Majid, lived and is recovering.

A few minutes later there was another missile strike, this time on a residential house. As we arrived a crowd had rushed to the ruins of the four story home in an attempt to drag survivors out from under the rubble. The family the house belonged to had evacuated the area the day before and the only person in it at the time of the strike was 17 year old Muhammud who had gone back to collect clothes for his family. He was dragged out from under the rubble still breathing- his legs twisted in unnatural directions and with a head wound, but alive. There was no choice but to move him, with the imminence of a possible second strike, and he lay in the ambulance moaning with pain and calling for his mother. We thought he would live, he was conscious though in intense pain and with the rest of the night consumed with call after call to pick up the wounded and the dead, I forgot to check on him. This morning we were called to pick up a body from Shifa hospital to take back to Jabaliya. We carried a body wrapped in a blood-soaked white shroud into the ambulance, and it wasn't until we were on the road that we realized that it was Muhammud's body. His brother rode with us, opening the shroud to tenderly kiss Muhammud's forehead.

This morning we received news that Al-Quds hospital in Gaza City was under siege. We tried unsuccessfully for hours to gain access to the hospital, trying to organize co-ordination to get the ambulances past Israeli tanks and snipers to evacuate the wounded and dead. Hours of unsuccessful attempts later we received a call from the Shujahiya neighborhood, describing a house where there were both dead and wounded patients to pick up. The area was deserted, many families having fled as Israeli tanks and snipers took up position amongst their homes, other silent in the dark, cold confines of their homes, crawling from room to room to avoid sniper fire through their windows.

As we drove slowly around the area, we heard women’s cries for help. We approached their house on foot, followed by the ambulances and as we came to the threshold of their home, they rushed towards us with their children, shaking and crying with shock. At the door of the house the ambulance lights exposed the bodies of four men, lacerated by shrapnel wounds- the skull and brains of one exposed, others whose limbs had been severed off. The four were the husbands and brothers of the women, who had ventured out to search for bread and food for their families. Their bodies were still warm as we struggled to carry them on stretchers over the uneven ground, their blood staining the earth and our clothes. As we prepared to leave the area our torches illuminated the slumped figure of another man, his abdomen and chest shredded by shrapnel. With no space in the other ambulances, and the imminent possibility of sniper fire, we were forced to take his body in the back of the ambulance carrying the women and children. One of the little girls stared at me before coming into my arms and telling me her name- Fidaa', which means to sacrifice. She stared at the body bag, asking when he would wake up.

Once back at the hospital we received word that the Israeli army had shelled Al Quds hospital, that the ensuing fire risked spreading and that there had been a 20-minute time-frame negotiated to evacuate patients, doctors and residents in the surrounding houses. By the time we got up there in a convoy of ambulances, hundreds of people had gathered. With the shelling of the UNRWA compound and the hospital there was a deep awareness that nowhere in Gaza is safe, or sacred.

We helped evacuate those assembled to near-by hospitals and schools that have been opened to receive the displaced. The scenes were deeply saddening- families, desperate and carrying their children, blankets and bags of their possessions venturing out in the cold night to try to find a corner of a school or hospital to shelter in. The paramedic we were with referred to the displacement of the over 46,000 Gazan Palestinians now on the move as a continuation of the ongoing Nakba of dispossession and exile seen through generation after generation enduring massacre after massacre.

Today's death toll was over 75, one of the bloodiest days since the start of this carnage. Over 1,110 Palestinians have been killed in the past 21 days. 367 of those have been children. The humanitarian infrastructure of Gaza is on its knees- already devastated by years of comprehensive siege. There has been a deliberate, systematic destruction of all places of refuge. There are no safe places here, for anyone.

And yet, in the face of so much desecration, this community has remained intact. The social solidarity and support between people is inspiring, and the steadfastness of Gaza continues to humble and inspire all those who witness it. Their level of sacrifice demands our collective response- and recognition that demonstrations are not enough. Gaza, Palestine and its people continue to live, breathe, resist and remain intact and this refusal to be broken is a call and challenge to us all.




Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:32 am
@oralloy,
I will now stop responding to your posts along with H2O. I'm tired of arguing with hot air.

I'll continue to post my proof and stop responding to those who refuse to provide any. You people are such a waste of time and energy.

I'm sorry too Endy. I really don't like doing this here.
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:36 am

A totally understand Montana and Olga - I too have had enough.

Please read this brave woman's statement if you get time.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:48 am
@Endymion,
Endymion wrote:
You are deluded.


No, not really.



Endymion wrote:
If you want to defend Israel's right to exterminate Gazans - let's hear it.


I don't want to defend that.

I'd much rather point out that Israel isn't exterminating the Gazans.

Israel is only defending themselves from Gazan aggression, according to the laws of war.



Endymion wrote:
Your refusal to believe what you are reading and seeing, is not our problem.


You mean when I refuse to believe the anti-Israeli lies?

That is not a problem at all, for you, me, or anyone else.



Endymion wrote:
If you want to start a thread called "The media are liars - the BBC are filming it all in a studio in London - that's fake blood " - go right ahead.


Why would I want that?

Have you somehow hallucinated a post where I've expressed a view even remotely like that?



Endymion wrote:
And stop trying to use that one (anti-Semite) on people - it doesn't wash.


Anti-Semites should always be denounced. Anti-Semitism is an ugly thing.



Endymion wrote:
Meanwhile, Caoimhe Butterly is an Irish human rights activist who has been working in Jabaliya and Gaza City as a volunteer with ambulance services during this siege. (Yes she is there right now)
She wrote a report which has now been published in Counter Punch. Here it is.

She can be contacted at [email protected]
(If you want to write to her, and ask her for more 'facts')


It was too long to quote again.

But I noticed nothing in the report I disagreed with (or which disagreed with anything I said).

She is wasting her time trying to prepare for chemical weapons use, though. Israel isn't going to use chemical weapons.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:52 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Oh gee. Another anti-Semite.


Testimony to your powers of discernment and critical thinking. I'm quite sure that you don't even know the meaning.

Now as to the use of white phosphorus, the double talk from the military, the US government is everything you expect of war criminals.

Quote:

White phosphorus use in Iraq

Legality

The use of White Phosphorus as an obscurant is legal, however its use on personnel targets is banned by Article III of the Geneva Conventions as an incendiary weapon, and by Article II of the Geneva Conventions as a chemical weapon (lethal through dust inhalation and through the mechanism of absorption through contact burns) Neither the US nor Iraq are signatories to Article III.

[JTT: Funny that, Saddam's Iraq and the USA are not signatories to Article III.]

The United State is signatory to Article II.

[JTT:Well well, what do you know, a war crime. Whoda ever thunk the US was capable of such a thing.]


A declassified US Intelligence document[12] from 1991 confirms the American stance that WP is a chemical as well as an incendiary weapon, stating in its summary "IRAQ HAS POSSIBLY EMPLOYED PHOSPHOROUS CHEMICAL WEAPONS AGAINST THE KURDISH POPULATION IN AREAS ALONG THE IRAQI-TURKISH-IRANIAN BORDERS."
Saddam's use of WP in 1991 was included on the list of war crimes which was used in part justification of the 2003 invasion.
The US Army Battle Book - Field Manual 100-3, published in 1999 by the US Army Command and General Staff College at Ft Leavenworth, KS [13]further confirms the American stance that the use of WP on human targets is a war crime, stating in Section III (Fire Support) paragraph section 5-11 para b subpara iii that "It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets."

JTT: But wait a second. You don't like the rules, then change the rule book.

Can anyone say "big time hypocrisy".


Since the American use of WP in Fallujah in 2004, the United States has taken the position that WP is not a chemical weapon. No Americans have been charged with war crimes resulting from the use of WP against human targets.


YET. Sane, rational, thinking, people with even a smidge of morality hope that will change.

Oralloy and his ilk, well not so much.

oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:53 am
@Montana,
Montana wrote:
I will now stop responding to your posts along with H2O. I'm tired of arguing with hot air.


Me pointing out the truth is hardly hot air.

You making vague statements about how "everything disagrees with me" -- without pointing out even one instance of this alleged disagreement when challenged.... now *that* is hot air.



Montana wrote:
I'll continue to post my proof and stop responding to those who refuse to provide any. You people are such a waste of time and energy.


You have not posted a single shred of proof.

Stop pretending that you have.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 12:58 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
Oralloy wrote:
Oh gee. Another anti-Semite.


Testimony to your powers of discernment and critical thinking. I'm quite sure that you don't even know the meaning.


No, I know it quite well.



JTT wrote:
Now as to the use of white phosphorus,


Kudos!!!!!!

You are the first person here tonight who has actually tried to address something I've said with any sort of intellectual honesty.

I've got to go for an hour or so, but I'll be back a little later tonight to address your post properly.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:00 am
@Endymion,
Quote:
Please read this brave woman's statement if you get time.


What the **** does she know, she was only there.

Oralloy wants reporting from embedded USA reporters who view things from the security of the Green Zone where they are fed pablum in an air-conditioned lounge from a group of Class A war criminals.

That's what he's been raised on and if you think for a moment that he's changing his diet now, then y'all got another think coming.
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:02 am
@Endymion,
I just finished reading Endy and I know you feel the pain as stongly as I do. The helplessness I feel is unreal!
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:04 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Oralloy: No, I know it quite well.


Endymion has shown you to be a liar, but then I knew that already.

Quote:
Endymion wrote:

And stop trying to use that one (anti-Semite) on people - it doesn't wash.

BOTH sides are Semites. But you know that already, don't you?


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:07 am
@Montana,
Buck up, Montana, Endy and MsOlga, while it doesn't do much for the innocents now, these evil ones will have their day.
Endymion
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:08 am
@JTT,

i was speaking to M & O
Smile



Anyway... what's happening is happening - what we say here won't change anything. I know. It's more about needing to share something. The guilt for this is widespread in my opinion.


Night
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:10 am
@JTT,
Oh, I know. What goes around, comes around and I've seen it enough times to know it true.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:10 am
@oralloy,
Hey, let's stop giving oralloy the attention s/he craves!

I'll bet you no one else pays any such attention to his/her opinions in real life! (outside of folk with exactly the same biases, of course! Wink )

Oralloy, come back & argue when you've read up a bit!
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:13 am
@Endymion,
I'm not so sure our voices can't change things, which is why I'm voicing as much as I can.
If we can open the eyes of just one clouded mind, it's something.

Sweet dreams to you Endy.
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:17 am
@msolga,
Got ya Msolga. I was on my way out when I saw your post. I will continue stretching my voice on the subject, but will be avoiding wasting any more breath on the clown factory.

Hang in there ((((msolga))))
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:19 am
@Endymion,
Quote:
i was speaking to M & O


You must have discerned the dripping sarcasm, Endy, when I said,

"What the **** does she know, she was only there."
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:27 am
@JTT,
sorry - knackered.

hey - thanks all of you
I know how hard it can be - take care

endy
Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 01:29 am
@Endymion,
(((((((Endy)))))))
0 Replies
 
 

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