THE WAR IN GAZA

**** but you're blind! Those numbers are well over half a million, just CHILDREN and the blame can be laid squarely at the doorstep of the USA and Britain.

But this is par for the course for the USA. Count the number of dead in Cuba from years of illegal blockades. Figure in the number of Vietnamese murderd by carpet bombing, napalming villages, much rape murder and torture in Central America, ...

You really are delusional in that you can speak of these things without recognizing just how much your own country is responsible for world-wide pain, suffering and death. Grow a brain for christ's sake!

Is your umbrage based on the personal belief that all humanity is equal? You can believe that, but should one proselytize that in a secular manner, since religion bases that belief as a truism from God? Where, other than religion, would one get that belief?

Your sense of guilt and shame propels you into a paroxysm of gibberish.

Then I guess I was not understood. Why would I have guilt and shame?

After thinking about all this for a while, i realised that i was wrong to call Advocate a fascist. It wasn't fair. I dumped my anger on him and that wasn't right. Anyway - i apologise, Advocate.

i can't debate here - i just find it too frustrating
Just one thing before i go, however



This is the complete opposite of the truth. The suicide bombings were ordered STOPPED by Hamas when they took power in 2006

Those numbers are well over half a million, just CHILDREN and the blame can be laid squarely at the doorstep of the USA and Britain.

But this is par for the course for the USA. Count the number of dead in Cuba from years of illegal blockades. Figure in the number of Vietnamese murderd by carpet bombing, napalming villages, much rape murder and torture in Central America, ...

For the very same reason that many Germans have felt guilt, shame and utter remorse for the things perpetrated by their government. The USA has committed some of the same things. It's only a matter of degree.

Facing the American flag with my right hand over my heart:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

I forget who, but someone said that Hamas did not engineer suicide bombings, and in fact stopped them. This is flat-out wrong. Hamas even took credit for many of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks

It is a lie that 300 children died in Gaza. Here are the numbers.


Last update - 11:22 25/03/2009


IDF: 600 Hamas men, 309 civilians died in Gaza offensive

By Amos Harel


More than 600 of the Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza have been identified as militants, while another 309 were innocent civilians, according to an updated list of Palestinian losses issued by the Israel Defense Forces.

The list, prepared by the IDF's Coordination and Liaison Authority for the Gaza Strip, is significantly different from the one the Palestinians use.

The Israeli document lists 1,370 fatalities, whereas different Palestinian lists range from 1,324 to 1,434. The IDF claims to have identified 1,249 of those on its list.

According to the IDF, more than 600 of the dead have been identified as members of a militant organization. This includes the police officers who were killed in an attack on their academy's graduation parade on December 27, the first day of the operation.

A total of 309 are described as "uninvolved," meaning they have been confirmed as innocent civilians. Another 320 are described as "unaffiliated," which means the IDF has not yet determined whether they have any affiliation with a militant group. Finally, 14 fatalities were members of Fatah whom Hamas executed during the fighting.

Of the 309 innocent civilians killed, 189 were children under the age of 15. Palestinians describe anyone under 18 as a child.


This group also includes 91 women, 21 elderly men who were not involved in the fighting, six UNRWA workers and two medical workers.

Efforts to identify the remaining dead are continuing.

The fatality list presented by the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza has numerous inaccuracies and contradictions, the IDF says. For example, Tawfiq Ja'abari, the commander of the Hamas police, and Mohammed Shakshak, a personal assistant to the head of Hamas' military wing, Ahmed Ja'abari, are both described as dead children on the Palestinian list.

IDF Gaza chief lauds ratio of militants to civilians killed

IDF GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant said on Tuesday that the low number of civilians killed during Operation Cast Lead was unprecedented in terms of other armies fighting under similar circumstances, Army Radio reported.

"This ratio of uninvolved [civilians] is an achievement for which there are no examples in the history of campaigns, not only in Israel but in the entire world - in this type of environment," Galant was quoted as saying.

The senior officer also said the offensive against Hamas, which he oversaw, had significantly improved Israel's deterrence, according to Army Radio.

"The warfare had a far-reaching effect not only on the arena of the Gaza Strip, but also our neighbors who are watch and fully understand that the IDF is capable of doing what it did here in other places as well," he was quoted as saying.

-- haaretz.com

Um, do you have any evidence for this? From the information I have seen thus far, the suicide bombings did not essentially stop until Israel imposed strict blockades and built the wall.

And do you deny that it is Hamas that has organized firing thousands and thousands of rockets into Israel hoping to hit anything, anybody--especially kids, women, civilians?

Check out this link that, while perhaps incomplete and not 100% verified, illustrates it pretty well. The numbers are deaths and do not include those injured and maimed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks

Let's stop with the bullshit. Hamas has to fight with what limited measures they have.

Look at the might, money and power that the USA has and they still target innocents with their cluster bombs, phosphorus bombs, carpet bombing, aka shock and awe, supported terrorism, including rape, mutilation, torture and murder.

How you can even begin to criticize others when you're part of something so dirty and evil yourself is truly beyond the pale.

You are truly full of it. Everything you said is BS.

Mar 26, 2009 12:53 | Updated Mar 26, 2009 15:12
'Iran-Sudan-Hamas chain exposed'
By JONATHAN SPYER



What's this?


The latest reports of an alleged IAF strike on a Hamas arms convoy in Sudan draw attention to an arms network running from Iran, via the Persian Gulf and Yemen to Sudan, Egypt, and Hamas-ruled Gaza. The existence of this network has been noted by analysts in the past. It forms part of a larger, overt, close relationship maintained by both Iran and Hamas with the regime of Omar al-Bashir in Khartoum.



World Reva Bhalla, an analyst at the US-based private intelligence company Stratfor, was the first to publicly note the transfer of arms from Iran to Hamas via Sudan. Speaking to reporters in early January, Bhalla suggested the involvement of Hizbullah agents in an Iranian created network bringing arms from Sudan to the Gaza Strip. Bhalla depicted the network in the following terms:

"You'll have a bunch of Hizbullah agents who will procure arms through Sudan. They'll enter Egypt under forged documents, pay off disgruntled Beduins in the Sinai with things like light arms, cash, Lebanese hashish - which they can sell in the black market - and pay off Egyptian security guards as well so that they can travel covertly into Gaza to pass off the weapons shipments through Hamas's pretty extensive underground tunnel network."

It is impossible to verify the precise accuracy of these details. However, the involvement of Sudan in the Iranian-Hamas war effort would fit with the larger pattern of Sudan's regional alliances and activity. The close connections between Teheran, Khartoum and Hamas are a matter of public record.

The regime of Brigadier Omar al-Bashir in Sudan is, with the exception of the Hamas enclave in Gaza, the only overtly Islamist and pro-Iranian government in the Arabic-speaking world. Sudan is an acknowledged member of the Iran-led regional alliance, which includes Syria, Hizbullah in Lebanon, Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Sudan has maintained close relations with Iran since the 1989 coup which brought Omar al-Bashir to power. Bashir's coup was carried out in co-operation with the Islamist National Islamic Front. Members of the front went on to hold key positions in the new regime. Iranian supplies of weapons and oil began soon after. Hassan al-Turabi, a Muslim Brotherhood associated Sudanese Islamist activist, was the key figure in building the Iran-Sudan link in the early days of the regime.



The new Sudanese armed forces were built on the model of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. 2,000 IRGC members are reported to have visited Sudan to aid in the creation and training of the new Sudanese army.

Since 1989, Sudan has become a center for terrorist training. The regime offered a base to Osama Bin-Laden and his followers in the early part of the 1990s. It is estimated that around 10 camps are maintained in Sudan, for the purpose of offering training to Islamist terrorist and paramilitary forces. Hamas members and others are reported to have taken part in military exercises in these camps. Sudan's documented close relations with Hamas are the main reason why the country appears on the US State Department's list of countries supporting terrorism.

Sudan's membership in the pro-Iranian regional alliance was in evidence earlier this month, when a senior delegation of Iranian, Syrian, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hizbullah officials traveled to Khartoum to express 'solidarity' with the Sudanese leader, who is currently subject to an international arrest warrant. The warrant, issued by the International Criminal Court at the beginning of March, seeks al-Bashir's arrest on charges of crimes against humanity relating to his regime's activities in the Darfur region of Sudan. Around 300,000 people are thought to have died as a result of the al-Bashir regime's campaign of ethnic cleansing against non-Arab Sudanese in the west of the country.

The solidarity delegation was led by Ali Larijani, speaker of the Iranian parliament. Larijani described the arrest warrant against al-Bashir as an 'insult to all Muslims', and spoke of Iran's support for the Sudanese 'government and people.'

So the al-Bashir regime in Sudan is tied into the Iranian-led alliance diplomatically, militarily and ideologically. Previous evidence indicates that Sudan has acted as a key node in the arms trail leading from Iran to Gaza. The latest allegations of Israeli military action to disturb the flow of arms to the Hamas-administered Iranian enclave on the eastern Mediterranean will therefore come as no surprise to close observers of the region.

The writer is a senior researcher at the Global Research in International Affairs Center, IDC, Herzliya.

Actually, it's true, Advocate. You can't escape that fact by hiding your head in the sand.

So the UN security council orders the embargo of Iraq, and you blame the US and Britain?
There are many more then 2 countries in the UN Security Council.



What illegal blockade of Cuba.
We dont have warships stopping anyone from trading with them, nor do we tell anyone they cant.
The US doesnt trade with Cuba, and has an embargo, but the US has never stopped any other country from trading with Cuba.
Your talk about an illegal blockade is pure BS and you know it.



And you seem to find it impossible to admit that the US has done more good in the world then it has bad.
Yes, this country has made mistakes, but overall the US has been a major force for good in the world.

You are not quoting me. I will not reply to any more of your posts, since you made reference to me and then showed the above quote that I did not say. Enjoy the other posters. You are not debating with me in a proper manner, in my opinion.

Clearly I was not quoting you, Foofie but I was amply demonstrating just what you're actually saying. Your willingness to turn a blind eye to the numerous war crimes perpetrated by your country mark you as a person who is really no different than the Germans who offered support to Hitler.

You don't debate, you just repeat the same old lies that you've been fed your whole life through. I know it must come as a shock that much of the hype was just that, hype, falsehoods when the truth reveals a much more self-absorbed nation.

I previously said that, after giving major concessions for the return of Shalit, Hamas would just turn around and kidnap other Israelis.

Here is some good evidence that this is the type of thing Hamas would do.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/28/content_11091623.htm

The best thing Israel can do is to kidnap many Hamas leaders, and trade for them.

Don't feel bad or look back. Many others have also given up 0n that poster, Foofie. He or she is not grounded in reality.