31
   

THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 02:55 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
No; the Arabs in Israel that are Israeli citizens are the Palestineans that did not "evacuate" to give the invading Arab armies (1948) a clear path to victory (that did not come). The Palestineans in Gaza are the Palestineans that left at the behest of those invading Arab armies. They were choosing sides.


Civilians leaving an area that might soon be under attack choose the side of the attacking army?

Tell me, Foofie: did Jews who fled from advancing Wehrmacht units also choose the side of the Nazis? Do Lebanese civilians fleeing from IDF attacks choose the side of Israel? What about Palestinians in the Gaza strip: do those who flee choose the side of Israel, or do those who remain in the face of advancing IDF units choose the side of Israel?


Foofie wrote:
You will possibly have a reply. Try not to.


I couldn't help myself.


Foofie wrote:
You have made your preferences clear.


No, I haven't. In fact, I have no preferences. Mostly because I don't think this is about picking sides and then sticking with them.

My attitude towards civilians and civilian deaths on both sides is pretty much the same: I think they're unacceptable.


Foofie wrote:
In the way of analogy, it was "old Europe" that caused the whole problem with European Jews that had nowhere to go after WWII, and survived the Final Solution.


I agree that the Holocaust was instrumental in bringing about the state of Israel. I have no idea what "analogy" you're talking about.


Foofie wrote:
I am not therefore enamored with a moniker of "old Europe."


I couldn't care less whether or not you feel you're offended by that.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 03:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Bush had maps of Iraq dividing up the country among the US oil companies. But Bush screwed that up, along with everything else he did.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 03:33 pm
@old europe,
There is a big difference about the Jews in Germany. The few that escaped were forced out. Most were rounded up and slaughtered. No one threathened the Arab Israelis who deserted Israel in the face of attack.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 03:46 pm
Obama is helping Hamas over our own soldiers.

http://www.theleafchronicle.com/article/20090322/OPINION/903220314
Endymion
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 08:00 pm
@Advocate,

your 'journalist' can't even get the year of an election right - let alone anything else

You do realise you are a racist, don't you? You must be. How else can you condone what Israel has done?

When you call me an anti-Semite, Advocate, knowing full well (because you've been told enough times) that Palestinians are Semites, too - you will understand why I think you are a hypocrite.

Just don't imagine for one moment that you are speaking for the good of the Jewish people. Or for peace for the world. Don't kid yourself about that, knowing the facts. You ARE NOT defending Judaism.
You are defending Zionist elitism. You are defending right-wing politics.
You are defending apartheid.
You are defending the suppression of indigenous people.
You are defending the illegal use of weapons testing on human beings.

In case it's not become obvious to you over the last few weeks, Advocate - and all the rest of you Israeli apologists, - the people defending murderous attacks against Semites, is you.

I was nine or ten years old when i first saw pictures of stick thin, naked bodies being scrapped into pits by bulldozers
I know how i've always felt about the Europeans who looked the other way, turned a deaf ear and pretended to be fooled by the propaganda aimed at the Jewish.

I told myself i would never be like them.

how about you?
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Mar, 2009 09:38 pm
@Endymion,
People who are not too bright latch on to semantics to make their arguments. I suggest you look up "anti-semite," which means anti-Jew.

It must be quite a strain for your small brain to ignore that Hamas has rocketed and shelled Israel for three years, and that Israel was forced to finally shut this down.

Israel would love to share the area with a peaceful Pal nation, but no Pal leader would dare enter into such an agreement, which would mean certain death at the hands of his fellow Pals.
Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 05:04 am
@Advocate,

It was YOU who used the word anti-Semite initially -not me

I'm calling you a racist

although fascist fits too
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:27 am
@old europe,
old europe wrote:


I couldn't care less whether or not you feel you're offended by that.


I prefer you do not use contractions (i.e., use "could not," rather than "couldn't").
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 07:42 am
@Endymion,
Endymion wrote:



I told myself i would never be like them.


No one is asking you to be like anyone. However, while you, in my opinion, might be questioning why pro-Zionists do not have guilt , how is your guilt over the atrocities perpetrated on the Irish for centuries (by the British)? Do not forget the forced conscription into the British navy, the starvation (food was being exported out of Ireland during the mid-19th century "famine"), and the prejudice was so indelible by the British, that so many British, that became Americans, came to the U.S. with that prejudice, so American Irish suffered for a century in America also.

And, let us be honest about the horrific way the British treated the indigenous peoples of their many colonies (the sun never sets on the British Empire hubris) allowed the British to develop an island nation where many British could live a lovely Victorian existence (garden and all domestics). In some small way, people in Britain, I believe, are still benefitting from that ruthless period of history.

Endymion
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:03 am
@Foofie,
true

maybe it's because i'm English and understand 'empire' mentality, that i listen to the propaganda aimed at Arabs and understand it for what it is.

Have you seen the cartoons of Jewish Semites, that Europeans (WWII) were informed, 'kidnap gentile children and slit their throats, to drink their innocent blood in Jewish rituals.'
Unsurprisingly - a lot of them look like the cartoons we now see depicting Arab Semites as the villains.

The horrible thing is that many actually believed it. Or pretended to.

Some were brainwashed into seeing Jewish people as non-human, others projected a cold callousness that masked their inner cowardice.
People will allow themselves to be convinced of something, even when they know the facts that tell them otherwise, because the alternative is too awful to contemplate.

Speak out in defence of the oppressed and you become one of them. That was the threat.

The fascist Government-controlled media de-humanised and vilified Jewish people so that no one would complain too much when they marched them off to the cattle trucks.
And they rounded up humanitarians who did speak out and carted them off too.
And hey, guess what? They did such a good job of de-humanising, threatening and murdering, that after a while, no one did complain. No one said anything.

Speak out in defence of them and you become one of them.

But if you don't speak for them " do you become one with their abusers? That's a question I have been struggling with for a few weeks now.
Do you struggle with yourself at all, regards your anti- Arab position?

We know it is propaganda that assists the Nazis. Propaganda that said, "Support the war, support the invasion of other counties, support the slaughter of men, women and children and still be able to get off to sleep at night knowing that the enemy aren't like you and me... they're less human and don't feel things the same way. They don't love their children in the same way. They don't have the same morals."

I'm sure there were plenty of idiots who told themselves those lies, when they were lining Jewish civilians up against the wall to shoot them dead.
And i know of plenty of idiots now, who are happy to jump on the propaganda wagon again, some with glee, promoting racial hatred and all manner of fascism.

I have one thing to say to those people. This is not a game in which you try to back the winner " because there can be no winners.

These days we need to guard against propaganda. We know its history, don't we?
It is propaganda that tries to convince the tax-payer that it's okay to contribute to the killing of Palestinians, because, Hey " they're 'Arab' Semites and that REALLY makes a big difference... Oh yeah, and they don't love their children in the same way…they don't have the same morals.

I for one, refuse to be sucked into that bullshit anymore.

We now know it was propaganda that sent us to Iraq.
For god's sake...a million people have been exterminated in Iraq.
Millions are refugees, and why?

Because people like me told ourselves that our government and the media wouldn't lie to us. But what excuse do we have today - knowing that, hey...in fact, they do. They do lie to us. They use propaganda - just as they always have.
Just as they did in 1939 and just as they did 8 years ago to promote the war in Iraq.

Crimes have been committed in Gaza. IDF soldiers who were there have spoken out.
Children have been shot dead in front of their parents, just like Jewish children were, once.

And yes, i know and agree that what the Nazis did to millions of people, Jewish and anyone else who they considered unworthy of life, was atrocity beyond what Israel, in their mere slaughter of thousands of Palestinians have so far achieved... but for the individual child shot dead in the street in Warsaw 65 years ago, and for the child shot dead in the street in Gaza 65 years later, what IS the difference?

I mean, really... what IS the ******* difference?
I can't think of a worse death for a child than to be cold-bloodily executed by a so-called 'responsible' adult.
Do you not, as an adult, feel some responsibility for the welfare of children? I know i do.

Israeli, Palestinian. African. i don't care where. The fact that children are in harms way due to the continuing fight for global domination makes me deeply ashamed. In fact, the suffering of children around the world has reached such staggering proportions because of war and poverty, i am starting to question the sanity of the human race. Not just of our leaders, but the people who put them into positions of great power and responsibility, but fail to hold them to account.

When Unicef tells us that 40,000 children die every day because of lack of basic human rights, the slaughter of 450 Palestinian children by high tech weaponry disgusts me.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:11 am
@Endymion,
Endymion wrote:


It was YOU who used the word anti-Semite initially -not me

I'm calling you a racist

although fascist fits too


If one is not a member of a racist/fascist organization/country/tea party, yet subscribes to the beliefs of same racist/fascist organization/country/tea party, then it would only be correct to refer to that person only as a racist/fascist "SYMPATHIZER." That is different than calling someone an "actual" racist/fascist. One should learn the subtleties/nuances of pejoratives.

Do you believe most British were repentent/remorseful about the fire bombing of Dresden "during" WWII? If not, did that make them racist?

Since I am Jewish, I believe I have an ethical right to be pro-Zionist, even when Israel's neighbors are the underdogs in military operations, since the military operations are the result of 60 years of neighborly obstreperous behavior, to say the least. Also, as an American I believe I do NOT have the ethical right to comment on the ridiculous incursion into the Argentine, to rescue some Falklands sheep, even if sheep were bleeting in horrendous fear.

I wonder whether some of the anti-Zionist rhetoric I read on the forum comes from people who consider themselves citizens of the world, rather than primarily citizens of a nation? In other words, one's ethics might be giving some people, in their minds, the ethical right to intrude on other people's business. Religion might do that for some people; however, note the anti-Zionist rhetoric never starts off by saying, "As a good Christian, Buddhist, etc.." So, I believe much of the anti-Zionist rhetoric by non-Jews may be just so much not minding their own business, or possibly being the proverbial bully against a small nation that managed to overcome 2,000 years of victimization by a hostile society (might I say your society?). It can also be therapeutic, in that it could be the classic "reaction formation" of projecting one's own lack of concern, about one's own country's misdeeds, onto another's conscience?
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:23 am
@Foofie,
maybe you missed my post above?
but yes - i believe the bombing of Dresden was a war crime

http://able2know.org/topic/123087-1
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:26 am
@Endymion,
Endymion wrote:

And yes, i know and agree that what the Nazis did to millions of people, Jewish and anyone else who they considered unworthy of life, was atrocity beyond what Israel, in their mere slaughter of thousands of Palestinians have so far achieved... but for the individual child shot dead in the street in Warsaw 65 years ago, and for the child shot dead in the street in Gaza 65 years later, what IS the difference?

I mean, really... what IS the ******* difference?
I can't think of a worse death for a child than to be cold-bloodily executed by a so-called 'responsible' adult.
Do you not, as an adult, feel some responsibility for the welfare of children? I know i do.



The difference is guv'nor (you are British you know), that there are forces in the world that would relight those ovens of 60 years ago, if given the chance. No one is ready to annihilate Arabs/Palestineans/Moslems. So, until we educate the Gentile masses to your level of humanity, Jews need Israel as the proverbial insurance policy, regardless of how responsible you feel for the people beyond your island nation.

And, what seems to be preventing, in my opinion, peace with Israel's neighbors is similar to the "sun never sets on the British Empire" mindset, in that the Arabs believe ALL THE SAND IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS BEEN GIVEN TO THEM. I think that reflects a puerile attitude, like a child that has a bag of candy and only gives candy to his best friends.

In the way of analogy, while the British do not presently have an Empire that the sun never sets on, your concerns, and others in Britain, I would guess, seems to take the place of the scope of the Empire? In effect, the sun never sets on the rightous concern of good British people? Is this a "psychological defense mechanism" for lack of Empire? Sort of like Germany might think of itself as a leader in the EU, now that guns and bullets will not be the way to gain hegemony over other nations! My opinion only.

Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:34 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

In the way of analogy, while the British do not presently have an Empire that the sun never sets on, your concerns, and others in Britain, I would guess, seems to take the place of the scope of the Empire? In effect, the sun never sets on the rightous concern of good British people? Is this a "psychological defense mechanism" for lack of Empire? Sort of like Germany might think of itself as a leader in the EU, now that guns and bullets will not be the way to gain hegemony over other nations! My opinion only.


Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. Rolling Eyes
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:40 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:

In the way of analogy, while the British do not presently have an Empire that the sun never sets on, your concerns, and others in Britain, I would guess, seems to take the place of the scope of the Empire? In effect, the sun never sets on the rightous concern of good British people? Is this a "psychological defense mechanism" for lack of Empire? Sort of like Germany might think of itself as a leader in the EU, now that guns and bullets will not be the way to gain hegemony over other nations! My opinion only.


Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. Rolling Eyes


You think tigers change their stripes?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:40 am
@Endymion,
Endymion wrote:

When Unicef tells us that 40,000 children die every day because of lack of basic human rights, the slaughter of 450 Palestinian children by high tech weaponry disgusts me.


Did it bother you that those mass graves in Iraq hold hundreds of thousands of dead slaughtered under Saddam Hussein plus the active ongoing torture and the rape rooms? (Some Iraqis suspect there are many more.) Did it bother you that the sanctions the UN imposed against Iraq contributed to the death of at least 50,000 Iraqis, including children, due to malnutrition and lack of medical care--confirmed by Amnesty International? Does it count for nothing that most deaths in Iraq have resulted from Islamic terrorist activities and not from US, British et al military force? Does it count for nothing that the majority of Iraqis now feel their lives are much better and that they feel safe? The Iraqis did not have peace before the war.

Now for the Palestinian/Israel issue:

How many Palestinian casualties would there be if the Palestinians/Arabs had no declared or conducted war against Israel? Is there any history of Israel launching wholesale military force against anybody unless they were attacked first or attack was imminent?

How many Palestinian casualties would there be if the Palestinians had made any effort of any kind to acknowledge Israel's right to exist and had settled their own nation instead of demanding it all? Is there any evidence that Israel would not have then have lived with them in peace as they do with Egypt and Jordan who aren't trying to destroy Israel?

How many Palestinian casualties would there be if the Palestinians didn't place their weapons and ammunition among unprotected civilians intentionally drawing fire to those civilians so they can use the dead and injured to generate sympathy for themselves? Yes there are isolated incidents of soldier misconduct on the Israeli side and nobody condones that. But as policy, the Israelis have done as much as anybody could expect to warn the civilians and avoid civilian deaths. Do they get any credit for that?

How much of the Palestinian land would Israel have annexed if the Palestinians/Arabs/Egyptians had not attempted to drive Israel out? How much would they now retain if every concession to return it had not generated more violence targeted at Israel?

And finally, if it was your children and spouse awakened terrified to the sound of air raid sirens, who had to frequently run for their lives to the bomb shelter, who could not play or work outdoors or go to the market for fear of being blown to smithereens, what would you consider the appropriate response of your government to deal with that? Just hunker down year after year and not fight back?

War is brutal, unconscionable, obscene, unjustifiable, and indefensible as a human activity because the innocent are always hurt and killed, and it should repulse anybody. But when one side is not willing to settle for anything but the extermination of the other, we either accept genocide or war is unavoidable.

There are bad people among the Israelis and bad acts committed by Israelis of course and nobody, certainly not honorable Jews, condone that. Such acts should be investigated and dealt with appropriately when they occur. Every official decision of Israel has not always been the best I think, but there is no question in my mind. Israel is the victim and is not the instigator of this war, and Israel has ever right to fight back when attack and do whatever it must do to protect its citizens.

At such time as the Palestinians agree to live in peace with Israel, and Israel does not accommodate that, then you will see me squarely on the Palestinian side.




Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 09:02 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

You think tigers change their stripes?


Your post was about zoology? Mendel? Sorry, didn't notice that.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 09:52 am
@Endymion,
You are great at name-calling, a sure sign of intellectual bankruptcy.
Endymion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 11:33 am
@Advocate,

That's rich, coming from you
But you're right - i'm no intellectual

I know right from wrong, however
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Mar, 2009 08:33 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
The Iraqis did not have peace before the war.


Another in the long line of idiotic "We had to destroy the village to save it", ideas that come from the brain dead Americans.
0 Replies
 
 

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