THE WAR IN GAZA

@Steve 41oo,

I gather you feel it is perfectly acceptable for Hamas to fire weapons from and store military supplies in schoolyards, and to store military items in mosques. Wow, what a Hamas apologist you are! You are as bad as they are. Hamas depends on dupes like you and Walter to cry out against Israel's defensive tactics.

What is really stupid is your view that Israel has no right to stop the rocketing and shelling of its citizens, which has gone on for three years. No country would tolerate that. Keep in mind that Israel could haave very easily killed hundreds of thousands in Gaza. Israel instead killed a little over a thousand, with most being Hamas fighters.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Gaza, as Steve noted, is a crowded ghetto, largely of Israel's making. The freedom of movement of the population there has long been restricted and controlled by the Israeli army - as has that of the Palestinian population of the various cantonments within what is left of the West Bank territory.

Think of a larger version of the Warsaw ghetto.

I think the funding of part of the reconstruction effort in Gaza (and the West Bank territories) by the United States and Europe is a great error. We are making ourselves enablers of the horrors of Isralei expansionist intolerance, and helping Israelis (and American Zionists) hide their eyes from the destruction and human suffering they have caused. Alternatively we could deduct the amount provided to the Palestinians from the grants (in cash) we provide Israel each year.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I think the funding of part of the reconstruction effort in Gaza (and the West Bank territories) by the United States and Europe is a great error. We are making ourselves enablers of the horrors of Isralei expansionist intolerance, and helping Israelis (and American Zionists) hide their eyes from the destruction and human suffering they have caused.

Of course you would agree, George, that it follows that the US should not be allowed to hide their eyes from the numerous horrors that they have inflicted upon Nicaragua, Cuba, Iran, El Salvador, Panama, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, ... .

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Gaza, as Steve noted, is a crowded ghetto, largely of Israel's making. The freedom of movement of the population there has long been restricted and controlled by the Israeli army - as has that of the Palestinian population of the various cantonments within what is left of the West Bank territory.

Think of a larger version of the Warsaw ghetto.

I think the funding of part of the reconstruction effort in Gaza (and the West Bank territories) by the United States and Europe is a great error. We are making ourselves enablers of the horrors of Isralei expansionist intolerance, and helping Israelis (and American Zionists) hide their eyes from the destruction and human suffering they have caused. Alternatively we could deduct the amount provided to the Palestinians from the grants (in cash) we provide Israel each year.

Israel forced the families in Gaza to have a high birth rate?

And, money that does not go to Israel, might not then wind up in the profit margin of American companies. Biting our nose to spite 0ur face?

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@Foofie,

Quote:

And, money that does not go to Israel, might not then wind up in the profit margin of American companies. Biting our nose to spite 0ur face?

No, more like you taxpayers being perennially porked in the behind.

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Lieberman's attainment of power is the direct result of the unwillingness of the Pals to recognize the state of Israel and negotiate with it in good faith.

Israel's Lieberman considered for FM: Likud official
6 hours ago

JERUSALEM (AFP) " Controversial ultra-nationalist Avigdor Lieberman is being considered for the job of foreign minister in the cabinet being assembled by Benjamin Netanyahu, an official in Netanyahu's Likud party said.

"There is a serious possibility that Avigdor Lieberman will take the helm of the foreign ministry," the official told AFP on condition of anonymity, adding that "nothing has been decided for the moment."

Lieberman's Yisrael Beitenu is the third-largest party in parliament after winning 15 seats in the 120-member chamger in February 10 elections.

For the moment, it is expected to be the second-largest party in a coalition Netanyahu is forming, and is laying claim to a senior portfolio, such as foreign affairs, finance or defence.

Netanyahu has excluded giving him the defence job because he lacks experience. The finance post could be a problem because of an ongoing corruption investigation, local media have reported.

Lieberman, 50, has built his reputation on statements that have earned him a reputation as a "racist" and "fascist" among critics and as a tough-talking man on security among admirers.

In the three years since the last election, he has called for the execution of Israeli Arab MPs who had dealings with Hamas, for Gaza to be "treated like Chechnya" and for Israel to fight Hamas "just like the United States did with the Japanese in World War II."

In October, he told Hosni Mubarak to "go to hell" for not coming to Israel, and after Israeli leaders apologised to the Egyptian president for the remarks, slammed them for acting toward Cairo like a "battered wife."

A resident of a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank, he wants to keep major settlement blocs in exchange for transferring areas with heavy concentration of Israeli Arabs to a future Palestinian state.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Lieberman's attainment of power is the direct result of the unwillingness of the Pals to recognize the state of Israel and negotiate with it in good faith.

Israel's Lieberman considered for FM: Likud official
6 hours ago

JERUSALEM (AFP) " ........
A resident of a Jewish settlement in the occupied West Bank, he wants to keep major settlement blocs in exchange for transferring areas with heavy concentration of Israeli Arabs to a future Palestinian state.

In short he advocates continued expropriation of Palestinian territory - in areas where Israel can get away with it - and, of course, rtention of all the West Bank territory Israel has illegally seized since 1967.

Israel's rationalizations of its own behavior in these situations is analogous to that of a theif who rationalizes shooting his victim because he was slow in surrendering his goods.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

In short he advocates continued expropriation of Palestinian territory - in areas where Israel can get away with it - and, of course, rtention of all the West Bank territory Israel has illegally seized since 1967.

Israel's rationalizations of its own behavior in these situations is analogous to that of a theif who rationalizes shooting his victim because he was slow in surrendering his goods.

Did we not have the same orientation towards our Native American friends?

The point is that aside from the Christian Zionists, and Jewish Zionists, those other Americans that want Jews to have a "homeland," have more than one reason to want Israel to continue into the future as a viable Jewish State. That might not happen, given the Arabs higher birthrate, and basic belief that the Middle East was given to them by virtue of once being there in the majority.

Regardless, the point that I find interesting is that those that are pro-Zionist, Jewish or Christian, are willing to be candid as to why they may favor the existence of a Jewish homeland (even if the reason includes keeping the Jewish population in the U.S.A. from growing excessively in the future). I do not find this candor convincing with anti-Zionist opinions, all the time, since that opinion just did not evolve after 1967, or the recent war. It might hide feelings that relate to feelings about Jews themselves, or how Israel has conducted itself (remember the USS Liberty?), not neccesarily about Israel's need to have enough land to maintain a population that will not be swamped by the fecund Arab.

But, I think the unstated reason that Israel should continue as a Jewish homeland is because Israel gives the other western nations innovations that might not get developed when Jews are functioning in a non-Jewish society. Something about Jews working in an exclusively Jewish environment that might just bring out the most creativity in some of them, in my opinion? In otherwords, Gentiles can function as a de-motivator to Jewish creativity, in my opinion. The American Jews we see accomplishing this or that obviously do not have that problem. But, they also tend to accomplish in those arenas that Jews are "allowed" to participate in, I believe.

By the way, are you aware of how far in the past Israel was developing those drones that we now use in the military? Were they the original innovators, since they had the most need for that technology?

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

There really is no such thing as a Palestinian territory. The Pals do not accept the state of Israel, and continue to attack it with the goal of destroying the state. The Pals have so far rejected a two-state solution. After many hundreds of attacks on the state, Israel seized the WB and Gaza, which it had every right to do. Now, certainly, Israel may expand Jerusalem, taking land that isn't owned by anyone. Similarly, Israelis have the right to settle in this stateless territory. Why should the Pals be able to maintain a territory where Jews are not allowed. After all, Arabs and many other minorities live in peace in Israel.

1 Reply

@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

But, I think the unstated reason that Israel should continue as a Jewish homeland is because Israel gives the other western nations innovations that might not get developed when Jews are functioning in a non-Jewish society.

I am tempted to repeat something John McEnroe said at Wimbledon but really can't be bothered. I'm amazed that a reasonably intelligent person, intelligent enough anyway to string a sentence or two together, can come out with such garbage.

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@Advocate,

Great potential candidate to sit out a long term at "Spandau" Prison.

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@Steve 41oo,

Quote:

I'm amazed that a reasonably intelligent person, intelligent enough anyway to string a sentence or two together, can come out with such garbage.

I agree.

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@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

There really is no such thing as a Palestinian territory. The Pals do not accept the state of Israel, and continue to attack it with the goal of destroying the state. The Pals have so far rejected a two-state solution. After many hundreds of attacks on the state, Israel seized the WB and Gaza, which it had every right to do. Now, certainly, Israel may expand Jerusalem, taking land that isn't owned by anyone. Similarly, Israelis have the right to settle in this stateless territory. Why should the Pals be able to maintain a territory where Jews are not allowed. After all, Arabs and many other minorities live in peace in Israel.

Do you really believe that fantasy?

What then would you call the territory outside Israel's recognized (and claimed) borders, that is not part of either Jordan or Egypt? "Stateless territory" I presume. What constraints, if any - legal or moral, do you consider to exist with respect to Israel's treatment of the human beings who live (and have lived for over a millenium) in this "stateless territory"? Is it OK for Israel to arbitrarily seize portions of their territory, excluding the inhabitants from it and further isolating them by creating protected corridors between such settlements? Is it OK for Israel to control the air and water rights of the inhabitants, limit their movement across their borders or even within their territory - all while offering them no political rights in the government that controls them?

We, of course, have been through all of this before. However, it appears to be your remarkable ability to ignore the evident facts of both history and the present reality that keeps bringing you back to these comforting Zionist illusions.

Before 1967 Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank part of Jordan. These territories were seized during a preemptive war launched by Israel in 1967. Within days of the war's end Israel announced its intent to retain permanent military control of heights overlooking the Jordan river between the West Bank and the state of Jordan - thus denying the population of the West bank a border with any entity other than Israel. Simultaneously Israel commenced the extablishment of Zionist settlements in and around Jerusalem and in other areas of the West Bank, typically on the high ground in easily defensible areas and, as well, near cities and sites valued by Jewish people. Throughout, Israel limited all commerce between the populations of Gaza and the West Bank, particularly isolating the people of the Gaza ghetto.

These settlement activities, most sanctioned by the Israeli government, some not (but all protected by the Israeli Army), have continued for the past 40+ years, and more are promised by the new Israeli government. In addition, beginning in 1967 Israel imposed a military occupation of the entire West Bank & Gaza, which continued for almost 40 years. During this occupation Israel allowed no political rights whatever to the conquered population and routinely restricted their movements both ouside and within their territory, thus preventing normal economic and social activity - all while proclaiming their dedication to a policy of "land for peace". After four decades of this, now with nascent Palestinian governing bodies in portions of their former territories, the Israelis are surprised and indignant at the hostility of the population they have displaced from its territory and oppressed throughout the living memory of most of them, using this as a pretext for ever more seizures of land and military oppression of the native people.

It's a pretty tough job putting a nice face on this story, but I'll concede you do keep trying.

1 Reply

@Steve 41oo,

Steve 41oo wrote:

Foofie wrote:
But, I think the unstated reason that Israel should continue as a Jewish homeland is because Israel gives the other western nations innovations that might not get developed when Jews are functioning in a non-Jewish society.

I am tempted to repeat something John McEnroe said at Wimbledon but really can't be bothered. I'm amazed that a reasonably intelligent person, intelligent enough anyway to string a sentence or two together, can come out with such garbage.

Why? Like the ravens of the 19th century, that were hunted into near extinction, few ravens today can be seen outside the deep depths of a forest. They "learned" to avoid man. Some Jews, I believe, feel the same way about a Gentile culture. Why would you assume that some Jews are not being hampered in their creative endeavors by having to expend mental energy in fitting into a surrounding Gentile culture?

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@georgeob1,

Did you forget to reply to my comment about your post a little farther back in the thread? I would hope you are not ignoring my comment. By the way, what was your analysis of the USS Liberty incident?

1 Reply

@Foofie,

"Incident" is a cute way of whitewashing a contemptible attack on a vessel flying the US flag in daylight on a clear day. Not to mention 10 (TEN repeat TEN) hours of broadcasts over the entire electromagnetic spectrum, much of it in the clear???

How's with "drop dead, Foofie, or, if you choose to live, live on somebody else's dime, not the US taxpayers" - thanks for reading Smile

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Anti-Israel people always drag out the Liberty thing (I didn't say incident). Israel absolutely had no reason to attack the Liberty, and its accidental attack was very damaging to the country.

The ship was sitting in a war zone, was unmarked because of its intelligence gathering, and had a flag that could not be seen because of a lack of wind. There is no doubt that the USA accepted the fact that an accident happened.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

Advocate wrote:

Anti-Israel people always drag out the Liberty thing (I didn't say incident). Israel absolutely had no reason to attack the Liberty, and its accidental attack was very damaging to the country.

The ship was sitting in a war zone, was unmarked because of its intelligence gathering, and had a flag that could not be seen because of a lack of wind. There is no doubt that the USA accepted the fact that an accident happened.

Actually it was Foofie who brought this up -- not me or High Seas.

As established in the Navy investigation following the incident unarmed Israeli reconaissance aircraft (slow moving prop planes) overflew Liberty several times more than an hour before the attacks commenced. It defies belief that they did not recognize the identity of the ship.

The USS Liberty was painted in the U.S. Navy standard "haze grey" colors; had her name clearly painted on the fantail; was flying the U.S, flag (after the first one was shot off its mast they hoisted a larger 9ft by 13 ft flag); and was operating in the exclusion zone Israel declared for Egyptian vessels, but one which she had otherwise every right to occupy. The Israeli navy was very familiar with the Egyptian naval order of battle and never once did the Israeli forces mistake Liberty for an Egyptian vessel. Moreover throughout the several attacks which spanned a few hours Liberty repeatedly broadcast her identity and position over the universal standard aviation emergency frequencies, both UHF and VHF (most combat aircraft, Israeli included, have special receivers always tuned to these frequencies). In addition Liberty broadcast the attack to the U.S. Sixth Fleet, then in the Central Mediterranean. (Ionian Sea) (It is inconceivable to me that the Fleet Commander didn't have a communications link with the Israelis.). Moreover it is a fact that USS Saratoga twice launched fighters to protect Liberty and they were twice recalled, presumably on orders from Washington.

The claims that the attacking aircraft (in several waves) did not also recognize Liberty's identity also defy belief.

The fact is that Liberty was monitoring the battle communications of both Israel and Egypt during the opening engagements of the Six day war, which was initiated by an Israeli surprise attack on Egyptian forces in the Sinai. It seems likely that Liberty, through monitoring of their communications, had or would soon have verification of the Israeli initiation of hostilities.

The investigation of the event left very sour feelings in the US Navy for Israel that lingered for a long time. It was generally believed that President Johnson and his idiot Secretary of Defense wished to avoid embarassing Israel and arousing her political supporters in this country in the midst of their exultation over the Israeli victory over her neighbors. Once again Johnson and MacNamara were willing to risk the lives of US servicemen but fail to back them up when things got tough. They also sidestepped an opportunity (or necessity, depending on your point of view) of exposing Israel's aggression to the world.

This turned out to have been a pivotal moment in history. In the flush of victory, the Israelis determined to create a greater Israel by systematically displacing the Palestinian population from the captured territories and depriving them of basic human and political rights for decades. In this their hubris led them to lose their moral compass and, in the name of of increasing israel's security, they instead created the conditions for oppression and war without end, thereby seriously jeapordizing it forever. Sadly, The United States endorsed these actions.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

This turned out to have been a pivotal moment in history. In the flush of victory, the Israelis determined to create a greater Israel by systematically displacing the Palestinian population from the captured territories and depriving them of basic human and political rights for decades. In this their hubris led them to lose their moral compass and, in the name of of increasing israel's security, they instead created the conditions for oppression and war without end, thereby seriously jeapordizing it forever. Sadly, The United States endorsed these actions.

Baloney George, Israel would be under seige now, regardless of all of that.

1 Reply

@okie,

okie wrote:

Baloney George, Israel would be under seige now, regardless of all of that.

And your evidence in support of that rather remarkable proposition is.....?

2 Replies

THE WAR IN GAZA

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