THE WAR IN GAZA

@hawkeye10,

Are we talking "heat of the moment" responses or well considered and calculated ones deliberated over for months on end?

Had the former been the case here we might not wish to be talking about it.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

Are we talking "heat of the moment" responses are well considered and calculated ones deliberated over for months on end?

some guys vow to never punch their wives, even though they are bigger and stronger and their wives could never stop them. Israel has almost all of the punching power, this does not mean that they should ever use it if provoked, heat of the moment or otherwise.

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@mysteryman,

NO MATTER WHAT ISRAEL DOES...NO MATTER WHAT THE PALESTINIAN LEADERSHIP DOES...

...there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East so long as the state of Israel exists...and any Arabs live there.

So it really doesn't matter if "Israel gives in."

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

violence is only occasionally the right response, in intimate relationship between individuals as well as countries.

I dont know where you are from, but violence is NEVER the "right response" in any intimate relationship.
So, if you believe that its ok to hit your wife, you are the one with the serious problem.

Between countries, I will agree that sometimes you have to use violence.
If the US never used violence, it wouldnt even exist as a country today, and most of western Europe wouldnt either.

As for Israel knowing of no other way, that is easily disproved.
They live in peace with Egypt, and yet Egypt was one of the countries that waged the most war against them.
They made a peace agreement, and now they are at peace.
So, if any other country in the region wants to live in peace with Israel, it is possible.

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@spendius,

I truly understand what you are saying, Spendius...and obviously I agree with a lot of it. We both are human beings who abhor some of the inhumanity humans heap on other humans...and who abhor the excuses and rationalizations for almost all of it.

But the Bush administration seemed to be especially willing to voluntarily give up many of the things they said we were fighting to preserve...and it absolutely drives some of us nuts to see so many people acquiescing in that kind of idiocy.

If we say we are morally superior to our enemies…it makes no sense to me, to stoop to their level of inhumanity no matter what. We've got to maintain the high road...or we are, in effect, saying they are right for laughing at us for doing so.

And…almost all the military people acknowledge that information obtained by torture is damn near worthless. People will do or say almost anything in order to stop the pain.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

there will NEVER be peace in the Middle East so long as the state of Israel exists

That, in a nutshell, is the stance of those countries and groups that hate Israel.
And that is why Israel is constantly fighting.

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

As for Israel knowing of no other way, that is easily disproved.
They live in peace with Egypt, and yet Egypt was one of the countries that waged the most war against them.
They made a peace agreement, and now they are at peace.
So, if any other country in the region wants to live in peace with Israel, it is possible

Israel took the wrong lesson from their experience with Egypt, that is that when provoked the correct response is always to escalate the violence. Even their decades long failure to make this plan work against Lebanon, Syria and the palestinians dissuades them from their view.

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

If the US never used violence, it wouldnt even exist as a country today, and most of western Europe wouldnt either.

If the US used force, not violence, only at the times it was truly necessary, the world would be a much much more peaceful place and there would be millions of innocents enjoying life rather than that found in a cold grave.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Sad but true.

It would cost a lot less to bring them to where we are and they wouldn't have to live in a constant state of siege. They would benefit us. They are supposed to be brainy and come up with world changing discoveries like banking and nuclear fission. And they are pretty good looking. They would only need to be Jewish when they wanted to be like we only need to be Christians when we want to be. Even just an odd Christmas Carol will keep the flame a flicker.

Look what banking has given us. It's unbelievable. And nuclear fission has brought the possibilty of cheap energy and ended wars in which tens of millions are killed and more than that maimed and trillion's worth of assets not only junked but expensively removed off site as they say in waste disposal units.

We Gentiles might never of thought of either.

Cripes==they invented the sacrificed male hero. That's some baby.

Oh--and psychoanalysis.

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@JTT,

Quote:

If the US used force, not violence

that being soft power and hard power, neither of which has to be violent. I do think that violence is sometimes necessary, in my view those who claim that it is always wrong don't understand humans very well, but it is rarely necessary. I don't think that we need to get sidetracked in arguing which is right; rarely or never. They are close enough to being the same for our purposes here.

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@mysteryman,

I fucked up, Mysteryman...I left a word out.

"As long as the state of Israel exists there " was what I meant to write. It makes a difference.

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@hawkeye10,

Quote:

They are close enough to being the same for our purposes here.

The difference is huge. 'violence' is the action of terrorists. It is what the USA has used on numerous countries since its inception, the Philippines, virtually every central and south American country, Vietnam, even Japan when they were rightfully exercising force, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Angola, the list goes on and on.

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@mysteryman,

Quote:

They live in peace with Egypt

They do now. Nobody is planning for "now".

Frank was referring to a force far greater than Egypt. Even a stable Egypt. The airwaves over there are full of all sorts of stuff. Frank meant that he thinks that that force will exert itself without end. Without end! Not just while you're reading about it in the paper.

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The extension of the logic from the Hawk and others is that Israel is at fault for Hamas equiping its children with suicide belts.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

We both are human beings who abhor some of the inhumanity humans heap on other humans...and who abhor the excuses and rationalizations for almost all of it.

As I know what a stickler you are Frank for clear expression in the language may I say that I abhor all of the inhumanity humans heap on other humans...and I abhor the excuses and rationalizations for all of it.

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@Advocate,

You can go on like that forever and ever Advocate. Have you anything constructive to say?

You're part of the problem. What do you think should be done that has a possibilty of acheiving something? Realistically. Not pie in the sky.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

assuming that you are/have been married: when ever your wife lashes out at you do you punch her in the face? If you do not punch her does that mean that you gave always give in to her?

violence is only occasionally the right response, in intimate relationship between individuals as well as countries. Israel knows of nothing else.

I believe the above analogy reflects a false analogy, since many civil people do not get along in a marriage, and they separate. No violence; just a physical separation. If Gaza can be moved onto the Sinai Peninsula that would solve the problem. Personally, I would put Christian Lebanese into Gaza to fill the vacuum. And, also in my personal opinion, the Christian Lebanese would in short order remake Gaza into a beachfront vacation paradise, where they would enjoy a booming economy. But, why did the current residents of Gaza not do that? Perhaps, some were too busy with their "Three Little Bears" mentality, "Someone took my Palestinean sand!!!!"

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Sad but true.

It would cost a lot less to bring them to where we are and they wouldn't have to live in a constant state of siege. They would benefit us. They are supposed to be brainy and come up with world changing discoveries like banking and nuclear fission. And they are pretty good looking. They would only need to be Jewish when they wanted to be like we only need to be Christians when we want to be. Even just an odd Christmas Carol will keep the flame a flicker.

Look what banking has given us. It's unbelievable. And nuclear fission has brought the possibilty of cheap energy and ended wars in which tens of millions are killed and more than that maimed and trillion's worth of assets not only junked but expensively removed off site as they say in waste disposal units.

We Gentiles might never of thought of either.

Cripes==they invented the sacrificed male hero. That's some baby.

Oh--and psychoanalysis.

And with all these talents, you want them to "bury their talents" in a sea of Gentiles?

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@Frank Apisa,

Your correct, it makes a big difference.

But I still think that there can be peace, as long as the other countries in the region are willing to leave Israel alone and to reign in their proxy warriors, groups like Hamas.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

And with all these talents, you want them to "bury their talents" in a sea of Gentiles?

Do you mean you are in favour of keeping them out? A sea of Gentiles is better than being surrounded by people who hate you.

I know which I would prefer. History is bunk.

1 Reply

THE WAR IN GAZA

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