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THE WAR IN GAZA

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 04:38 pm
@Foofie,
There is no doubt that there will be further nuclear proliferation. Further, there is no doubt that there are Arab countries that, on getting the bomb, will use it on Israel. The prognosis is poor.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 04:44 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Further, there is no doubt that there are Arab countries that, on getting the bomb, will use it on Israel. The prognosis is poor.


I'm rather sure that Israel will threaten to use its nuclear weapons ... before any Arabian country really could think about getting some.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:02 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
Further, there is no doubt that there are Arab countries that, on getting the bomb, will use it on Israel. The prognosis is poor.


Advocate, that is nonsense. Why would anyone risk their own annihilation just to nuke Israel?
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:05 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Advocate wrote:

Further, there is no doubt that there are Arab countries that, on getting the bomb, will use it on Israel. The prognosis is poor.


I'm rather sure that Israel will threaten to use its nuclear weapons ... before any Arabian country really could think about getting some.


Says the world reknowned A2K Ashkenazi Rebbe.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:10 pm
@JTT,
Gee I dont know.

Why would anyone risk their own annihilation just to launch terror rockets into Israel?

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:13 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Gee I dont know.

Why would anyone risk their own annihilation just to launch terror rockets into Israel?




Are you assuming everyone in the world has your concept of what is valued?
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:22 pm
@Foofie,
????

I simply responded to the comment made by JTT.
I just changed a few of his words.
Where was your snide comment about his remark?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 05:29 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

????

I simply responded to the comment made by JTT.
I just changed a few of his words.
Where was your snide comment about his remark?


This back and forth banter/repartee is becoming to obtuse then for me to say anything. Retract my post from the Ashkashic Hindu records.

I made no snide comments.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 06:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Actually Frank, the 3 months doesn't matter. It is the restriction to two terms.
Once the guy in is going you will get the same situation however short you make the changover period which I assume was set originally to take account of old fashioned travel times which no longer apply and the fact that not much was happening which also no longer applies.

A Prince's Trust poll has found that 10% of teenagers think that life is meaningless and not worth living. I don't recall anybody even thinking of that sort of thing when I was a teenager. Do you?

And the pub landlord told me that the whole industry is "fucked".

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 06:38 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie…wake up.

Jews and Muslims were living in Palestine almost from the first Diaspora…and for the most part, the harmony was acceptable. Fact is, neighbors of different ethnic backgrounds often fight, but the amount of disagreement between Jews and Arabs or Muslims was minimal…actually up until the very late 19th century.

The heavy influx of Jews at that time did cause some concern…and Arab leaders actually encouraged the influx of Muslims into the area to counterbalance the Jewish immigration.

There were a couple of incidents…as you pointed out during the early 20th century.

But c’mon, Foofie, are you actually trying to compare that minor nonsense to the carnage now going on???

Anyone who does not recognize that the imposition of the state of Israel into that area served as the impetus for an unprecedented escalation of bad feelings, attacks, counterattacks, retribution, retaliation and on up to what we are witnessing today.

I ache for both sides. My mind honestly cannot wrap around the kinds of horrors both sides face every day of their lives.

But Foofie, the attempts by some Jews to make it seem that the Palestinians and Arabs are barbarians…and the Jews just innocent waifs being put upon and almost forced to retaliate…is goddam absurd.

There is not the slightest sense of proportionality in the response. There is the constant gloating that “we can kick their ass anytime we want.”

And there is the unbearably one-sided approach of America to the proceedings.

There have to be infuriating things to the non-Jews…and this thing will never end because of that!

Go ahead, win your battles. But the cost is going to be enormous--more than likely not only to the Jews and non-Jews of the Middle East, but probably to the entire world.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 08:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Foofie…wake up.

Anyone who does not recognize that the imposition of the state of Israel into that area served as the impetus for an unprecedented escalation of bad feelings, attacks, counterattacks, retribution, retaliation and on up to what we are witnessing today.

I ache for both sides. My mind honestly cannot wrap around the kinds of horrors both sides face every day of their lives.

But Foofie, the attempts by some Jews to make it seem that the Palestinians and Arabs are barbarians…and the Jews just innocent waifs being put upon and almost forced to retaliate…is goddam absurd.

There is not the slightest sense of proportionality in the response. There is the constant gloating that “we can kick their ass anytime we want.”

And there is the unbearably one-sided approach of America to the proceedings.

There have to be infuriating things to the non-Jews…and this thing will never end because of that!

Go ahead, win your battles. But the cost is going to be enormous--more than likely not only to the Jews and non-Jews of the Middle East, but probably to the entire world.


As you are surely aware of, even before the present military actions, there has been a world-wide condemnation, by some, of Israel for being just a Zionist state, officially for Jews. Now, if there was a two state solution, how many Jews would be allowed to live in the Arab state? I think zero. And today there is a peaceful population of Arabs living in Israel. The only way to appease the Arabs is for Israel to fold its tent and leave. But, that will not happen. So, peace could be a ways off.

You also say above, "There is the constant gloating that “we can kick their ass anytime we want.” Who are you quoting? This sounds more like an editorial comment of some pundit. Do you know many Israelis in your suburban Jersey?

Anyway, similar to the Italian Communists always liking to annoy the Vatican, there is a population of ultra liberals that like to criticize Israel, regardless of whether they are in a military action or not. It is obvious, to me, that there is a world-wide population that would be willing to appease the Arabs and make the post WWII decision to place the survivors in the Middle East a bad decision. That will not happen. Perhaps it was a poor decision in hindsight, but a worse decision is to pander to the belief that all the sand in the Middle East belongs to Muslims.

The good news is that in NJ, NY, and Conn., Jews and Italians live well as neighbors, yet no one sees that they should be a role model for civilized behavior world-wide.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 10:41 pm
Quote:
JERUSALEM, Jan. 8 -- The International Committee of the Red Cross said Thursday that it had found at least 15 bodies and several children -- emaciated but alive -- in a row of shattered houses in the Gaza Strip and accused the Israeli military of preventing ambulances from reaching the site for four days.

Red Cross officials said rescue crews had received specific reports of casualties in the houses and had been trying since Saturday to send ambulances to the area, located in Zaytoun, a neighborhood south of Gaza City. They said the Israeli military did not grant permission until Wednesday afternoon.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010700791.html?hpid=topnews

Israel keeps claiming that they have learned from the defeat in Lebanon....Does not look like so to me. Israel is inflaming the Arab street, which makes it very difficult for the moderate Arab governments to continue to give Hamas the cold shoulder. The Iranians are jumping for joy.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 11:21 pm
@JTT,
Are you saying that Iraq and Libya were not planning to nuke Israel?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2009 11:29 pm
Regarding the moaning about the "disproportionate" Israeli response to about 8,000 rockets, I guess that FDR should have called off the planned destruction of Tokyo because it would be disproportionate to Pearl Harbor.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 12:01 am
Quote:
An Unnecessary War



By Jimmy Carter
Thursday, January 8, 2009; Page A15

I know from personal involvement that the devastating invasion of Gaza by Israel could easily have been avoided.

After visiting Sderot last April and seeing the serious psychological damage caused by the rockets that had fallen in that area, my wife, Rosalynn, and I declared their launching from Gaza to be inexcusable and an act of terrorism. Although casualties were rare (three deaths in seven years), the town was traumatized by the unpredictable explosions. About 3,000 residents had moved to other communities, and the streets, playgrounds and shopping centers were almost empty. Mayor Eli Moyal assembled a group of citizens in his office to meet us and complained that the government of Israel was not stopping the rockets, either through diplomacy or military action.

Knowing that we would soon be seeing Hamas leaders from Gaza and also in Damascus, we promised to assess prospects for a cease-fire. From Egyptian intelligence chief Omar Suleiman, who was negotiating between the Israelis and Hamas, we learned that there was a fundamental difference between the two sides. Hamas wanted a comprehensive cease-fire in both the West Bank and Gaza, and the Israelis refused to discuss anything other than Gaza.

We knew that the 1.5 million inhabitants of Gaza were being starved, as the U.N. special rapporteur on the right to food had found that acute malnutrition in Gaza was on the same scale as in the poorest nations in the southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.

Palestinian leaders from Gaza were noncommittal on all issues, claiming that rockets were the only way to respond to their imprisonment and to dramatize their humanitarian plight. The top Hamas leaders in Damascus, however, agreed to consider a cease-fire in Gaza only, provided Israel would not attack Gaza and would permit normal humanitarian supplies to be delivered to Palestinian citizens.


After extended discussions with those from Gaza, these Hamas leaders also agreed to accept any peace agreement that might be negotiated between the Israelis and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, who also heads the PLO, provided it was approved by a majority vote of Palestinians in a referendum or by an elected unity government.

Since we were only observers, and not negotiators, we relayed this information to the Egyptians, and they pursued the cease-fire proposal. After about a month, the Egyptians and Hamas informed us that all military action by both sides and all rocket firing would stop on June 19, for a period of six months, and that humanitarian supplies would be restored to the normal level that had existed before Israel's withdrawal in 2005 (about 700 trucks daily).

We were unable to confirm this in Jerusalem because of Israel's unwillingness to admit to any negotiations with Hamas, but rocket firing was soon stopped and there was an increase in supplies of food, water, medicine and fuel. Yet the increase was to an average of about 20 percent of normal levels. And this fragile truce was partially broken on Nov. 4, when Israel launched an attack in Gaza to destroy a defensive tunnel being dug by Hamas inside the wall that encloses Gaza.

On another visit to Syria in mid-December, I made an effort for the impending six-month deadline to be extended. It was clear that the preeminent issue was opening the crossings into Gaza. Representatives from the Carter Center visited Jerusalem, met with Israeli officials and asked if this was possible in exchange for a cessation of rocket fire. The Israeli government informally proposed that 15 percent of normal supplies might be possible if Hamas first stopped all rocket fire for 48 hours. This was unacceptable to Hamas, and hostilities erupted.

After 12 days of "combat," the Israeli Defense Forces reported that more than 1,000 targets were shelled or bombed. During that time, Israel rejected international efforts to obtain a cease-fire, with full support from Washington. Seventeen mosques, the American International School, many private homes and much of the basic infrastructure of the small but heavily populated area have been destroyed. This includes the systems that provide water, electricity and sanitation. Heavy civilian casualties are being reported by courageous medical volunteers from many nations, as the fortunate ones operate on the wounded by light from diesel-powered generators.

The hope is that when further hostilities are no longer productive, Israel, Hamas and the United States will accept another cease-fire, at which time the rockets will again stop and an adequate level of humanitarian supplies will be permitted to the surviving Palestinians, with the publicized agreement monitored by the international community. The next possible step: a permanent and comprehensive peace.

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/07/AR2009010702645.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 06:57 am
Quote:
Palestinian Red Crescent ambulances and ICRC officials managed to reach several houses in the Zeitoun area of Gaza City on Wednesday after seeking access from Israeli military forces since last weekend, the ICRC statement said.

The rescue team "found four small children next to their dead mothers in one of the houses," the ICRC said.

"They were too weak to stand up on their own. One man was also found alive, too weak to stand up. In all there were at least 12 corpses lying on mattresses," it said.

In another house, the team found 15 survivors of Israeli shelling including several wounded, it said.

Three corpses were found in another home. Israeli soldiers posted some 80 meters (yards) away ordered the rescue team to leave the area which they refused to do, it said.

The ICRC said it had been informed that there were more wounded sheltering in other destroyed houses in the area.

"The ICRC believes that in this instance the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuated the wounded. It considers the delay in allowing rescue services access unacceptable," it said.

Source: Haaretz
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 07:58 am
Israeli troops kill U.N. truck driver at Gaza crossing

Quote:
JERUSALEM " Israeli soldiers opened fire Thursday on a truck attempting to deliver humanitarian aid to the beleaguered Gaza Strip, killing one United Nations-contracted driver and seriously wounding another, U.N. officials said.

The shooting occurred at the Erez checkpoint, the main entrance used by relief agencies to funnel badly needed food and medical supplies into Gaza, where Israel is waging a devastating, 13-day-long military campaign against the militant Islamic group Hamas.

U.N. officials said that they had contracted the truck to deliver supplies into Gaza, and that the Israeli military had approved the delivery. But Israeli ground troops, which control the Erez checkpoint, fired on the truck. It wasn’t clear what caused the Israeli soldiers to open fire, and Israeli military officials weren't immediately available for comment.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 08:12 am
@revel,
Quote:
(Communicated by COGAT - Coordination of Government Activities in the Territories, Ministry of Defense)

Today between 13:00 and 16:00, the IDF will implement for the second successive day a humanitarian recess in offensive activities. This step is in order to enable the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip to replenish stocks and to enable the international organizations to carry out their humanitarian missions.

Also this morning, approximately 300 dual nationals are expected to be evacuated via the Erez terminal at the request of the various embassies. The dual nationals will be shuttled to Allenby Bridge and make their way to Jordan accompanied by embassy staff.

Approximately 100 trucks to be transferred to Gaza via Kerem Shalom, and for the first time as a pilot via Erez. Finally, some 500,000 liters of heavy duty diesel for the Gaza power station are scheduled to be conveyed to Gaza via the Nahal Oz fuel depot.


Source:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2009/Cessation_IDF_Gaza_offense_second_day_8-Jan-2009.htm wrote:
Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:01 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The wounded UN aid worker is dead by now.
The UN has suspended all its activity in the enclave.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Jan, 2009 09:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
How much you want to bet Israel will claim there was Hamas somewhere nearby or was there previously or even dressed up as UN workers so the blame will be on Hamas? More than likely the US will say Israel was justified and democratic congress will pass more resolutions in praise of Israel.
0 Replies
 
 

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