24
   

GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 10:59 pm
Journalist, John Pilger, speaking this week about Australia's involvement in Afghanistan. Kevin Rudd is Australia's prime minister, for those of you who mightn't know .... :

Quote:
...Last July, Kevin Rudd said: ''It's important for us all to remember here in Australia that Afghanistan has been a training ground for terrorists worldwide, a training ground also for terrorists in South-East Asia, reminding us of the reasons that we are in the field of combat and reaffirming our resolve to remain committed to that cause.''

There is no truth in this statement. The Prime Minister was standing outside a church on a Sunday morning when he said this. No reporter challenged him. No one put it to Rudd that our perceived enemy in Afghanistan were introverted tribesmen who had no quarrel with Australia and didn't give a damn about South-East Asia and just wanted the foreign soldiers out of their country.

Above all, no one said: ''Prime Minister, 'There is no war on terror. It's a hoax. But there is a war of terror waged by governments, including the Australian Government, in our name'.''

''I confess,'' wrote Lord Curzon, viceroy of India, more than a century ago, ''that countries are pieces on a chessboard upon which is being played out a great game for the domination of the world.'' We Australians have been in the service of the great game a very long time. ...


From an edited extract from ''Breaking the Australian Silence'', the lecture given last night at the Opera House by John Pilger, the 2009 recipient of the Sydney Peace Prize
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/truth-is-the-casualty-of-a-carefully-calibrated-illusion-20091105-i03f.html
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 09:01 am
@High Seas,
Does technology make the slaughter of innocents less onerous? That is a new one.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 09:01 am
@High Seas,
In the case of McNamara, his crimes were so onerous that they should dig him up and try him.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 09:07 am
@okie,
There were so many massacres by the USA in Nam, it is hard to believe that you are so unaware. For instance, do you recall hearing about Mai Lai? BTW, please tell us of the lies by John Kerry. I think he was brutally honest.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:08 pm
@Advocate,
Quote:
A First Glimpse at Bush's Tortureshow

John Walker Lindh, Revisited

By DAVE LINDORFF

Now that we know the truth behind how U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have been treating captured fighters (and captured innocent bystanders), it's time to revisit the case of John Walker Lindh, the so-called "American Taliban fighter" who is now serving 20 years in federal prison. For had Lindh pursued his case in court, instead of settling and getting slapped with a gag order, he might have exposed the whole prisoner abuse scandal two years ago, and spared the U.S.-and a whole lot of abused or slain POWs-the Abu-Ghraib fiasco.

Lindh, it may be recalled, was among a group of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters captured and later, for the most part, slaughtered in northern Afghanistan by American soldiers and their Northern Alliance allies.

Initially threatened by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft with being tried as a traitor, Lindh was eventually charged with terrorism, consorting with Al Qaeda, and attempting to kill Americans. But he never went to trial. Instead, he pleaded guilty to just two relatively innocuous charges. But for those two charges-the first of which (carrying a grenade), probably innumerable Americans are guilty of, and the second of which (providing services to an enemy of the U.S.), could more properly be brought against a number of major U.S. corporations--Lindh had the book thrown at him by a compliant federal judge in Virginia. The judge, at the government's request, also hit him with a gag order barring him from talking about his experience. As part of his plea bargain agreement, Lindh was even forced to sign a statement saying: "The defendant agrees that this agreement puts to rest his claims of mistreatment by the United states military, and all claims of mistreatment are withdrawn. The defendant acknowledges that he was not intentionally mistreated by the U.S. military."

This outlandish and over-the-top effort to legally muzzle Lindh appears in a harsh new light now that we know the criminal nature of U.S. prisoner-of-war policies.

In the run-up to his trial, it was clear from documents submitted by the defense that Lindh had been viciously treated in captivity. Shot in the leg prior to his capture, and already starving and badly dehydrated, Lindh unconscionably was left with his wound untreated and festering for days despite doctors being readily available. Denied access to a lawyer, and threatened repeatedly with death, he was duct-taped to a stretcher and left for long periods of time in an enclosed, unheated and unlit metal shipping container, removed only during interrogations, at which time he was still left taped to his stretcher. (Hundreds of his Taliban and Al Qaeda comrades actually were deliberately allowed to die in those same containers in one of the more monstrous war crimes perpetrated during this conflict.)

In truth, the government's case against Lindh was always spurious at best. A 20-year-old, white, middle-class convert to Islam from Marin County, California, Lindh had only gone to Afghanistan in August 2001, scarcely a month before the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. At the time of his arrival there, the Taliban government, far from being an enemy of America, was still receiving funding from the U.S. government. Lindh, to the extent that he was ever a fighter with the Taliban (he hadn't had time for a decent "boot camp"training in weapons use), was in fact fighting the Northern Alliance, not America, at the time of the U.S. invasion. His attorneys maintain that he never was an enemy of his own country, and in fact had been trapped with the Taliban in Afghanistan by the surprise U.S. invasion.

What appears to have led Ashcroft and the U.S. government to drop its serious charges against Lindh, and to agree to a settlement on minor charges, was his defense attorneys' plans to go after testimony about his treatment from other Afghani captives being held at Guantanamo who had witnessed it.

Had those witnesses been permitted to testify in his case--as the judge had already said he would probably agree to, given Lindh's constitutional right to mount a vigorous defense--there would have been plenty of embarrassing evidence presented about torture and abuse at the hands of U.S. troops.

This sorry legal history raises a couple of very troubling questions.

First of all, the haste with which the government deep-sixed this case, after first trumpeting it as a highlight in the "war on terror," and the lengths to which the attorney general went to silence Lindh, suggest that the Bush administration well knew what was coming and was determined to keep its criminal treatment of POWs in Afghanistan a secret. Second, the closing off of evidence of torture, to which Lindh himself could have testified, along with any witnesses he might have called-witnesses who might well have included some of his torturers and their superior officers-allowed an official campaign of torture and abuse of POWs to continue and to expand into Iraq, ultimately leading to the Abu Ghraib scandal and the discrediting of the entire U.S. war effort. Last, but certainly not least, Lindh himself, terrified at being railroaded to a potential death sentence or a sentence to life in prison without parole, and already a victim of torture and abuse at the hands of his federal captors, remains almost certainly wrongfully imprisoned-just one more victim of America's criminal violation of the Geneva Conventions and our own constitutional right to a fair trial.

In a fair world, Judge T.S. Ellis, who accommodated the Justice Department by slapping Lindh with a brutally harsh sentence, and by gratuitously silencing him and forcing him to forswear any future claim of torture, would reopen this case in view of what is now known about how prisoners like Lindh were being treated by U.S. forces.

This is not, however, a fair world-or a fair legal system--and as more and more judges like Ellis are appointed to the federal bench, it is becoming even less fair as time goes by.

http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff06052004.html


High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 01:36 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:
Does technology make the slaughter of innocents less onerous? That is a new one.

Advocate - you fail to grasp the most elementary concept of warfare: the idea is to destroy the ENEMY. The ENEMY cannot be INNOCENT - by definition. It doesn't get any simpler than that, so please get it through your head.

Technology, btw, is increasingly evolving in a non-lethal direction - why kill the enemy at all if you can incapacitate him instead? Some of the ideas proposed are fairly fanciful (like the "gay bomb"), but others are known to work, not just as tested in labs by cognitive neuroscientists but as actually deployed in, e.g., product placements, or perfumed stores, as parts of marketing and advertising campaigns:
http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/01/18/scream.jpg
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/01/pentagon-resear/

Back to the topic here, Afghanistan - I see nothing to be gained there by any deployment of weaponry, lethal or nonlethal, only an endless drain of US and allied blood and treasure. As a practical matter, no amount of brutality we could possibly deploy (and never mind yours or JTT's decade-old imaginary tales) could possibly compare with what the Russians did at the same location not so long ago, and it got them nowhere.

Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 02:05 pm
This is a really hard issue to deal with. I've been reading the posts and everyone makes valid points. I know that I'd hate to see the Taliban back in power, but considering the small force deployed by Australia, even though we have suffered casualties in the country, it's not really our blood spilling on the barren ground of that country. I don't mind admitting that this issue is simply too big for me to arrive at a position that I could defend with the confidence of my convictions.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 03:07 pm
@High Seas,
You don't seem to grasp that innocent civilians, including women, children, and the elderly, are not enemies. Of course, this has not stopped us from slaughtering these human beings.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 03:09 pm
@JTT,
What you describe with respect to the treatment of Walker is very similar to the treatment accorded Padillo, which really sickens one. He was literally driven crazy because of the torture he suffered. He should be freed immediately.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 03:36 pm
@Wilso,
Wilso wrote:

..... I don't mind admitting that this issue is simply too big for me to arrive at a position that I could defend with the confidence of my convictions.

Your honesty does you credit. I'm not going to re-iterate my position (other than to correct an omission, and explicitly express gratitude for the fact Australian troops have fought on the US side in every war at least since Gallipoli), but hope that this excerpt from one Australian eminently familiar with Afghanistan will help to convince you my position is right:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/how-australia-could-have-won-the-vietnam-war/story-e6frg6z6-1225795166348
Quote:
....For example, the volatility and vulnerability of Pakistan no doubt is an unintended outcome to the continuing strife in Afghanistan. The conflict continues to provide, as did Iraq for a number of years, a battleground for the minds of Muslims across the world.

I think we can confidently say we are losing this battle.

It is possible another unintended consequence of both Iraq and Afghanistan has been the urge of Iran to seek a pre-eminent or at least invulnerable role in the region through its nuclear program. No reasonable person would have happily contemplated these possibilities.
[..........]
Our men and women in uniform pay for that right every day. We are a loyal friend accompanying others in Afghanistan because it is right, but our presence is not and never has been unconditional.

In Vietnam our voice was not heard. It is in our national interest that it is heard among our allies at this critical time in Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 04:08 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
you fail to grasp the most elementary concept of warfare: the idea is to destroy the ENEMY. The ENEMY cannot be INNOCENT - by definition. It doesn't get any simpler than that, ... .


Ho hum, yet another piece of amoral American scum.
0 Replies
 
hamburgboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 05:10 pm
@Wilso,
wilso :
i'm with you . i really don't know what afgh war/conflict is REALLY about - but there are plenty of opinions .
you may wish to read the long article by ackerman - i'm still confused even after reading it .
here is the link :

http://www.theawl.com/2009/11/elsewhere-understanding-afghanistan

as the reviewer said :

Quote:
but at the end of it you'll be much better informed about the whole situation. And probably much more depressed.



and so it goes ... ... ...
0 Replies
 
Brand WTF
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 08:37 am
It seems to have leaked that Obama will send 40,000 more troops in the near future.

There's a lot of speculation about it but many times these leaks are valid.

The official announcement wouldn't be made until later this month.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Nov, 2009 10:24 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

There were so many massacres by the USA in Nam, it is hard to believe that you are so unaware. For instance, do you recall hearing about Mai Lai? BTW, please tell us of the lies by John Kerry. I think he was brutally honest.

There were apparently massacres in Vietnam, as there are likely in virtually every war since the dawn of man. I of course heard about Mai Lai, who hasn't? I believe it happened. My point is this, that as a Vietnam veteran that was there, I never witnessed, nor did I ever hear about an atrocity or massacre. You can take that to the bank. If such was so common, I believe I could not say the above. We can also take it to the bank that many of the stories from Winter Soldier were certifiable lies, misprepresentation, and exaggerations, which Kerry claimed to be true. Also, Kerry's testimony to Congress about atrocities, it was bogus, it was lies and exaggerations. Similarly, if you are going to make an accusation with a supposed tape, you are obligated to provide proof of it, Advocate, and I would suggest if you can't, to put up or shut up.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:24 am
@okie,
Quote:
Okie speculates: My point is this, that as a Vietnam veteran that was there, I never witnessed, nor did I ever hear about an atrocity or massacre. You can take that to the bank. If such was so common, I believe I could not say the above.


Quote:
At the time of its original release in 1972, "Winter Soldier" was greeted with skepticism and largely ignored by the mainstream media. "Only the local Detroit Free Press bothered to confirm the veracity of accounts and the credentials of participants," reported Johnny Ray Huston in a 2005 review of the film and its impact. "Television primarily turned a blind eye, and conservative publications like the Detroit News cast doubt on the allegations made without offering any specific proof of deception."[2] The ABC, NBC, CBS and PBS television networks were offered opportunities to broadcast the film but declined.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Soldier_(film)


Quote:
The apologist for war crimes continues:

We can also take it to the bank that many of the stories from Winter Soldier were certifiable lies, misprepresentation, and exaggerations, which Kerry claimed to be true. Also, Kerry's testimony to Congress about atrocities, it was bogus, it was lies and exaggerations.


Quote:
Soldiers who appeared in the film included (in order of appearance):
Rusty Sachs, 1st Marine Air Wing
Joseph Bangert, 1st Marine Air Wing
Scott Shimabukuro, 3rd Marine Division
Kenneth Campbell, 1st Marine Division
Scott Camil, 1st Marine Division
John Kerry, Coastal Divisions 11 & 13, USN
Steve Pitkin, 9th Infantry Division
Jonathan Birch, 3rd Marine Division
Charles Stevens, 101st Airborne Division
Fred Nienke, 1st Marine Division
David Bishop, 1st Marine Division
Nathan Hale, Americal Division
Michael Hunter, 1st Infantry Division
Murphy Lloyd, 173rd Airborne Brigade
Carl Rippberger, 9th Infantry Division
Evan Haney, US Naval Support Activity
Robert Clark, 3rd Marine Division
Gordon Stewart, 3rd Marine Division
Curtis Windgrodsky, Americal Division
Gary Keyes, Americal Division
Allan Akers, 3rd Marine Division
William Hatton, 3rd Marine Division
Joseph Galbally, Americal Division
Edmund Murphy, Americal Division
James Duffy, 1st Air Cavalry Division
Scott Moore, 9th Infantry Division
Mark Lenix, 9th Infantry Division
Thomas Heidtman, 1st Marine Division
Dennis Caldwell, 1st Aviation Brigade
James Henry[1]


Quote:
The film, shot largely in black and white, features testimony by soldiers who claim that they participated in or witnessed the killing of civilians, including children; mutilation of bodies; indiscriminate razing of villages; throwing prisoners out of helicopters; and other acts of cruelty towards Vietnamese civilians and combatants.

Some participants also claimed that these acts reflected orders from higher-up officers. A number of soldiers are quoted stating that their military training failed to include instruction in the terms of the Geneva Convention, while others state that the dangers they faced as soldiers created an environment in which they regarded all Vietnamese as hostile "gooks" and stopped seeing them as human beings.
In testimony by Joseph Bangert, he describes traveling in a "truckload of grunt Marines" when "there were some Vietnamese children at the gateway of the village and they gave the old finger gesture at us. It was understandable that they picked this up from GIs there. They stopped the trucks -- they didn't stop the truck, they slowed down a little bit, and it was just like response, the guys got up, including the lieutenants, and just blew all the kids away. There were about five or six kids blown away, and then the truck just continued down the hill."

In addition to soldiers' testimony, the film provides photographic evidence to support some of its allegations.




okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:39 am
@JTT,
JTT, here is what I believe has been established about this. If you want to continue to believe the myths, that is your privilege, but wanting to believe it does not make them true. No doubt, atrocities happened, but to assert that they were widespread and common is totally wrong in my opinion. And the evidence supports my opinion. I am very comfortable with the evidence because it agrees with first hand observation and experience. So you can go with unsubstantiated and proven to be lies, or you can accept the truth about it.

In April, the VVAW stormed Washington in a week-long protest. At its height, spokesman John Kerry went before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations to accuse the United States military of committing massive numbers of war crimes in Vietnam. The appearance launched Kerry's political career. The charges he made shocked and sickened a nation, changed the course of a war and stained the reputation of the American military for decades.

But the mass murder of civilians was never American policy in Vietnam. War crimes were the exception, not the rule. And the Winter Soldier tribunal itself -- which John Kerry had helped moderate -- turned out to be "packed with pretenders and liars."

----------
What happened when military investigators asked the "winter soldiers" for evidence of all the war crimes they had alleged? Mostly stonewalling, backtracking, and statements that failed to support the VVAW's claims...

http://www.wintersoldier.com/
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:51 am
@okie,
Quote:
The charges he made shocked and sickened a nation,

It should have.

changed the course of a war

That was a good thing too. It stopped many more unnecessary murders, rapes and torture, in a nutshell, a lot more war crimes.

and stained the reputation of the American military for decades.


You mean highlighted and pointed to what had been the case for close to a century.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:56 am
@JTT,
JTT, I have talked to Vietnamese since the war, some recently, and I have also talked to people that have visited Vietnam. It is reported that the Vietnamese generally like Americans, and it is not uncommon to see young people with American flags on their shirts or hats, etc. It is also reported that the people that had contact with Americans in the south are generally more pro-American as well. I do not believe this would happen if atrocities were all so widespread as you are claiming. You have believed it because that is the popular media hyped generality about the war, but sorry, you need to educate yourself about it and quit believing the popular media and John Kerry. As I repeat again, atrocities happened, as in any war, but they were not widespread run of the mill every day occurences, and they were no way part of our military policy.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 09:12 am
Former Sen. Bob Kerry admitted to participation in a massacre in Nam. He and his men were well into the countryside at a village. He said they were afraid that, once they departed, the villagers would somehow notify the enemy who would then ambush them. To prevent this, he and his men offed the villagers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1298289.stm
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 09:49 am
@Advocate,
Interesting, I had not read that before. At least a couple of pertinent points about this, first is the fact that Kerry was the guy in charge and if he knew he crossed the bounds of decency, then he should have it on his conscience, it was wrong. However, another guy remembers the story differently, which apparently lessens or eliminates the magnitude of the crime I am not sure, it depends upon other factors, and an eyewitness apparently backs up the other guy. Some things I would need to know to judge this better, was it truly a village, outside of what was considered free fire zones, or was it a temporary camp type village for the purpose of supporting Vietcong, which was considered a combat zone for which the inhabitiants would have known and would have been responsible for being there at their own risk? Those factors would make a huge difference in this. If this was truly a civilian village considered not part of enemy territory, then Kerry is responsible for that. The other factors here is this was a Navy outfit, which may have operated differently than the Army, and if the outfit was not properly schooled in what was proper or not proper, or if they overstepped their bounds, then Kerry needs to be held accountable. From what I experienced, the Army was very carefull in laying down the ground rules of what was proper, and firing on a civilian village was never okay, unless in a specific point of gunfire perhaps, but I never saw this happen, and I never saw any civilian village ever fired upon.

I keep noticing my posts voted to zero. I feel this is strange, as my posts are not nasty or personal attacks, but they contain valid information based upon truthful information. Apparently some people cannot handle anything that counters their prejudiced beliefs, no matter the truth or facts. Don't bother them with facts.
 

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