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Third century battlefield found: Romans fought the Germans later than expected

 
 
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 02:14 pm
More than 600 Roman artifacts were found on a battlefield in northern Germany: the Romans [may] have stayed longer than thought:

Quote:
Roman battlefield discovered in northern Germany

15.12.2008
By KAI SCHOENEBERG, Associated Press Writer


KALEFELD-OLDENRODE, Germany " Archaeologists say they have uncovered a third-century battlefield in northern Germany which could prove that Roman legions were fighting in the region much later than historians have long believed.

Rome's most famous incursion into the north of modern Germany came in A.D. 9, when Roman soldiers were defeated by Germanic tribesman at the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest.

However, the newly uncovered battlefield near Kalefeld-Oldenrode, south of Hanover, is some 200 kilometers (124 miles) northwest of the Teutoberg Forest and appears to date to between A.D. 180-260.

At a press conference Monday, archeologists said they used coins and weaponry excavated from an area 1 1/2 kilometers (one mile) long and 500 meters (1/3 of a mile) wide to date the battlefield.

Petra Loenne, an archaeologist for the state of Lower Saxony, said she and her colleagues have found 600 artifacts, including spears, arrowheads, catapult bolts and dishes at the site of a struggle that might have involved up to 1,000 Roman fighters.

Guenther Moosbauer, an expert at the University of Osnabrueck who studies Roman-German history, said he suspects the battle might have been started by a legion seeking revenge after tribesman in A.D. 235 pushed Roman troops south of the Limes Germanicus, a ring of forts that separated the empire from unconquered land to the north and east.

"We will need to take a new look at the sources," Moosbauer said.


 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 02:14 pm


The battlefield

http://i38.tinypic.com/2ll0ho2.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/fd52cl.jpg

Report by the local county/district.

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 02:18 pm
Thanks, Walter. Very interesting. I have seen other excavation sites on my visits to Germany. One of my blonde, blue-eyed aunts told me that my looks come from Roman ancestry and are not really "German".
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 03:29 pm
I note that they are just to the south of Braunschweig . . . i suspect a Roman mutiny when they were forced to accept liver sausage for their rations . . .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 03:45 pm
@Setanta,
The "Braunschweiger" in Braunschweig" isn't a leaver sausage at all ... (A leaver sausage is a leaver sausage ('Leberwurst').


Interesting really is that the the Varus battle was though to have been the last larger battle between the Germans and Romans, nearly 300 years earlier.

And even more interesting: at 'Kalkriese' (near Osnabrück) where many think the Varus battle had happened, only rather few findings were made - but three legions have taken part in that battle. And lost it.

Those -perhaps- 1,000 Roman soldiers who took part in this newly found battle, may have won - but more than 600 pieces are found. Until now.

I suppose, the search for the ground of the Varus battle will go on - as it did since ages.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 04:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
http://i35.tinypic.com/j0z5h2.jpg

(The new battle ground is outside the map - I cut off the arrow and part of my writing Embarrassed )
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 07:51 pm
Is the point of this post to point out that the Roman Empire, at some point, included parts of Germany?
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Dec, 2008 09:29 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
Is the point of this post to point out that the Roman Empire, at some point, included parts of Germany?


That would hardly be newsworthy, would it? The point of this post -- I just knew somebody would have to spell it out for you, Foofie -- is the date, not just the location. Sheeesh.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 12:12 am
Was it a motivational tool for the late Empire soldiery?

"There are plenty of spots for grumblers on the Eastern Front!".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 12:25 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Is the point of this post to point out that the Roman Empire, at some point, included parts of Germany?


The point of this post is very similar to the reason why it is in the media: no-one thought that there was any (larger) battle east of the limes later than AD 9.

I suppose anyone with just a little education has had history classes and knows about the dimensions of the Roman Empire.

--------------
Some experts suggest that he battle might have been started by a legion seeking revenge after tribesman in A.D. 235 pushed Roman troops south of the Limes.

Since the site has been secured from looters, full-scale excavations will commence next year to dig deeper into that mysterious battle.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 12:41 am
Walter - I'll just fill in a little for some posters who may not know of the expression 'Limes Germanicus'. These were the defence lines where the Romans could exercise control over border areas.

The idea is just like Hadrian's Wall - this is the spot were civilization ends and the 'savages' begin. It was a series of hill-forts and temporary camps to stop or resist incursion by armed forces into Roman-controlled areas. Those from the US would see the similiarity in the use of forts throughout the frontier areas in the 19th Century to control Native Americans.

The Germanic Limes split the nation roughly between the Rhine and the Upper Danube. It was a very flexible concept - sometimes consolidating and sometime pushed back. By the 3rd century the area had been pretty well abandoned - it would seem that this group of Romans had the bad luck to be sited in hostile lands with no back-up.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 01:10 am
@Mr Stillwater,
Thanks, Stilly!

[Actually, the Limes Germanicus is some decades older than the Hadrian's wall. Iit was built -at least, the mayor and main parts- after the devastating Roman defeat in the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD, while the Hadrian's wall -as the name suggest- was built under emperor Hadrian. Wink .)]
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 04:01 am
Major Discovery: Archaeologists Find Roman-Era Battlefield in Germany
Quote:
Arrowheads, axes and coins: Archaeologists have located a battlefield dating back to the 3rd century AD in a forest in northern Germany. An entire Roman legion equipped with battle catapults of the kind portrayed in the film "Gladiator" is believed to have fought a Germanic tribe here.
[...]
Historians say the discovery of the battlefield is so significant because it appears to refute the assumption that the Romans withdrew from Germania after their defeat by an alliance of Germanic tribs at the battle of the Teutoburg forest in 9 AD.

Many of the weapons found are in good condition and they prove that Roman armies were still engaging in major military operations far north of the Alps at a time when the Roman Empire was in terminal decline.

0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 09:39 am
It is nice to know that Romans were present there so early. So, based on the number of commanders in the legions, the population of literate in that neck of the woods was ten? My point is, I find it so silly to seemingly value those in history that naturally did exist, yet were nothing like us moderns. Let us be honest, so much of the world were illiterates, and unable to count beyond their fingers (and toes?). Is this interest something akin to ethnic pride? Ancestor nostalgia?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 09:51 am
What a putz.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:01 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

It is nice to know that Romans were present there so early. So, based on the number of commanders in the legions, the population of literate in that neck of the woods was ten? My point is, I find it so silly to seemingly value those in history that naturally did exist, yet were nothing like us moderns. Let us be honest, so much of the world were illiterates, and unable to count beyond their fingers (and toes?). Is this interest something akin to ethnic pride? Ancestor nostalgia?


You are referring here to ... what exactly? History as a science? Your "popular" understanding of the past?

May I kindly remind you either to contribute to the thread or leave it and start a new, own one.
Thanks.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:

It is nice to know that Romans were present there so early. So, based on the number of commanders in the legions, the population of literate in that neck of the woods was ten? My point is, I find it so silly to seemingly value those in history that naturally did exist, yet were nothing like us moderns. Let us be honest, so much of the world were illiterates, and unable to count beyond their fingers (and toes?). Is this interest something akin to ethnic pride? Ancestor nostalgia?


You are referring here to ... what exactly? History as a science? Your "popular" understanding of the past?

May I kindly remind you either to contribute to the thread or leave it and start a new, own one.
Thanks.


Considering so many of the posters on A2K are American, I believe my question has some merit. Do I start threads, for A2K readers, with some arcane history of NYC? In other words, when a thread is relating to history, it is often in context of discerning the correctness of some historical fact of general interest. A post of the above thread, in my opinion, is quite interesting to Europeans, Germans, possibly Italians (aka modern day Romans). But, as an American of a country only a few hundred years old, it would be like starting a thread about new archeological discoveries on the site of Custer's Last Stand. In other words, quite interesting perhaps to some people, especially Westerners, Native Americans, but not to a general audience, I believe. But, that should not stop you from posting specifically Eurocentric threads, by no means. Perhaps, I am still sensitive about the centuries of the term Far East being used, since it was based on how far the region was from Europe. Now we say Pacific Rim nations. Europe is sort of boring to many Americans, in my opinion. So, there are many that enjoy your posts, and advise you of such. Can you accept my less enthusiastic response, since I do take the time to read your posts? I choose to read your posts. I choose to comment on them.
CalamityJane
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:23 am
@Foofie,
Foofie, as you have no interest in the world as such, you readily assume that
other Americans are like you. Let me assure you that you and your way of thinking is quite isolated, even for todays standards. You are an ignorant
cantankerous old man, and that's all you are. Stop going after Walter and ruin
just about every thread he opens. Get a life you ignorant fool!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:27 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Considering so many of the posters on A2K are American, I believe my question has some merit. Do I start threads, for A2K readers, with some arcane history of NYC? In other words, when a thread is relating to history, it is often in context of discerning the correctness of some historical fact of general interest. A post of the above thread, in my opinion, is quite interesting to Europeans, Germans, possibly Italians (aka modern day Romans). But, as an American of a country only a few hundred years old, it would be like starting a thread about new archeological discoveries on the site of Custer's Last Stand. In other words, quite interesting perhaps to some people, especially Westerners, Native Americans, but not to a general audience, I believe. But, that should not stop you from posting specifically Eurocentric threads, by no means. Perhaps, I am still sensitive about the centuries of the term Far East being used, since it was based on how far the region was from Europe. Now we say Pacific Rim nations. Europe is sort of boring to many Americans, in my opinion. So, there are many that enjoy your posts, and advise you of such. Can you accept my less enthusiastic response, since I do take the time to read your posts? I choose to read your posts. I choose to comment on them.


I sincerely doubt that you have attended any history classes in any type of school in any country.

This may excuse you deep ignorance of any historical context.

Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2008 10:38 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


I sincerely doubt that you have attended any history classes in any type of school in any country.

This may excuse you deep ignorance of any historical context.




Just not interested in European history. There is no excuse for that. Just a personal preference. Wait! I am interested in English history, in addition to American history from a conservative interpretation, since I do have a command of that language.
 

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