34
   

Let GM go Bankrupt

 
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2009 02:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Couldn't have said it any better myself. Thx.


welcome. so now he's goin' on ignore with gonads the possum. the only 2.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2009 03:07 pm


You loons are clueless, but at least you have each other... Laughing
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2009 03:46 pm


Just twenty-one (21%) of voters support the President’s plan to bail out General Motors.
Sixty-seven percent (67%) oppose the plan that will give the government ownership of the struggling auto giant.
0 Replies
 
Pamela Rosa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2009 06:27 pm
Quote:
Monday is bankruptcy for GM
Storied automaker suffering huge losses and plummeting market share will file for Chapter 11 protection at 8 a.m. Obama to address nation
May 31, 2009

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- General Motors, the nation's largest automaker and for decades an icon of American manufacturing, stood Sunday on the brink of bankruptcy and a de facto government takeover.

A bankruptcy petition will be filed on Monday at 8 a.m., according to a source with direct knowledge of the bankruptcy proceedings.

Investors who own 54% of $27 billion in GM bonds have agreed to not fight plans for a quick bankruptcy process, GM said on Sunday.

The deal with bondholders could make it easier for GM to restructure by neutralizing some of the opposition to a bankruptcy filing. But it does not wipe away the need for the company to seek court protection for making drastic reductions in dealer, labor and other costs.

President Obama will address the nation shortly before noon on Monday to discuss the bankruptcy, two officials close to the situation told CNN. Obama will explain the rationale for the filing and his hopes that this is the best route for a turnaround.

It is expected that GM will detail some 20,000 job cuts and the closure of about a dozen plants by the end of 2010. The company has already said it will slash 40% of its network of 6,000 retail dealerships by next year and drop four of its brands -- Hummer, Saab, Saturn and Pontiac.

The impact of GM's bankruptcy, which follows a Chapter 11 filing by Chrysler on April 30, will ripple across the nation to dealers, suppliers and other businesses large and small that work in the sector.

The company, once the country's largest private sector employer, has only a fraction of its former staff. Its 80,000 hourly and salaried U.S. employees are half the number it had as recently as 2001.

Nearly 500,000 U.S. retirees, as well as more than 150,000 of their family members, depend on GM health insurance and pension plans. Retirees will see cuts in their health care coverage, although the company's underfunded pension plans are not expected to be affected by a bankruptcy filing.

In addition, some 300,000 employees at GM dealerships will be affected, as well as hundreds of thousands of workers at auto parts makers and other GM suppliers whose jobs depend on the company's survival.

Road to bankruptcy
The company and Treasury Department officials, under direction of Obama, have been negotiating for weeks with creditors and the United Auto Workers union.

The government, bondholders and a trust fund controlled by the UAW will wind up owning the stock of a reorganized GM.

Al Koch, a veteran of such bankruptcy turnarounds as retailer Kmart and a managing director at the advisory firm AlixPartners LLP, will be named chief restructuring officer, the Wall Street Journal's online edition reported Sunday. AlixPartners declined to comment on the report.

An effective government takeover -- even one that aims to be temporary -- marks a dramatic turn for century-old GM, which has been brought to a whisper of insolvency by plummeting auto sales and huge losses.

General Motors (GM, Fortune 500) has reported losses of more than $90 billion since 2005, while its share of the U.S. market has dropped to 19% from more than 40% in 1980.

On Thursday, GM disclosed that it had reached a deal to give major bondholders essentially 10% of the company and rights to buy an additional 15%. The government would end up owning 72.5% and the UAW 17.5%.

While most of the major bondholders have agreed to drop their fight in return for the stake in the company, many small bondholders vowed to fight the reorganization plan, arguing they deserved a larger stake in the company. They argued that Treasury and the union trust fund got too large a stake in the company given their losses.

Both administration officials and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger have said they hope to sell their stake in GM as soon as is practical.

But it is likely that GM's stock will not be publicly traded for at least 6 to 18 months. Current GM stockholders will see their holdings in the company completely wiped out by the bankruptcy filing.

GM stock closed trading Friday at 75 cents a share. Adjusted for stock splits, it marked the first time the stock finished at that level since 1932.

The future
A Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing would aim to help GM emerge with only its more profitable plants, brands, dealerships and contracts. GM's unprofitable plants, contracts and other liabilities that the company can no longer afford would be left behind.

The government has already given GM $19.4 billion to fund operations and cover losses this year, and total help is expected to exceed $50 billion.

GM will pay back $8 billion of that sum. The government will also receive $2.5 billion in preferred shares of GM that pay a dividend and are more similar to a loan than stock.

But more than $40 billion of federal help to GM will be converted into the 72.5% stake in the new company. Taxpayers would make back the money loaned to GM if shares of the new GM increase dramatically in value following an exit from bankruptcy.

GM is expected to have about $17 billion in debt following bankruptcy, significantly less than the $54.4 billion it owed as of March 31.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/05/31/news/companies/gm_bankruptcy_looms/?postversion=2009053119
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 May, 2009 07:14 pm
sounds like a good time to buy some gm stock. but not with scared money, of course.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 08:58 am
Well, here they go...

(let the big experiment begin)
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 10:22 am
@rosborne979,
rosborne979 wrote:

Well, here they go...

(let the big experiment begin)


This "big experiment" began when Obama was elected.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:09 pm


I can see PrezBO selling used cars in 2012.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/firstzenmaster/used-car-salesman-obam.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:10 pm
Those of you trying to put the best possible face on this, as of today GM's outstanding debts are almost double the worth of its entire assets. The Obama administration is trying to put the best possible face on it by explaining to us taxpayers that WE now own GM, yet they dodge every question re when and if we will ever see a return on our investment. Some experts on TV this week said that no company with asset/debt ratios of GM would ever be profitable again. A year ago GM stock was something over $90/share. Today it is 78 cents.

And what good did the $50 billion already plowed into or pledged to GM accomplish?

Quote:
DETROIT (AP) - With an almost certain bankruptcy filing days away, General Motors is beginning its reinvention, planning to retool one factory to make its smallest vehicles ever in the U.S. and rid itself of the biggest.

As GM's board began two days of meetings Friday to make a final decision on the company's fate, GM was also closing in on a sale of its European Opel unit, and its main union overwhelmingly approved dramatic labor cost cuts. A deal to sell its rugged but inefficient Hummer brand also appeared on the horizon.

The moves provided more clues about what a restructured GM might look like ahead of the expected Chapter 11 filing Monday. Taxpayers will eventually own nearly three-quarters of a leaner GM, with a total government commitment of nearly $50 billion. . . .
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98G5K080&show_article=1


Artist's rendition of the proposed GM small car:
http://s456.photobucket.com/albums/qq289/LindaBee_2008/th_SmallCarObama.jpg
The 2010 Obama

Quote:
"Today's bankruptcy declaration in federal court by General Motors is an avoidable, crude weapon of mass devastation for workers, dealers, auto suppliers, small businesses and their depleted communities. For GM's voiceless owners -- the common shareholders -- it is a wipeout."--Ralph Nader
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20090601.DC25338&show_article=1
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:12 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Those of you trying to put the best possible face on this, as of today GM's outstanding debts are almost double the worth of its entire assets. The Obama administration is trying to put th best possible face on it by explaining to us taxpayers that WE now own GM, yet they dodge every question re when and if we will ever see a return on our investment. Some experts on TV this week said that no company with asset/debt ratios of GM would ever be profitable again.

And what good did the $50 billion already plowed into or pledged to GM accomplish?

Quote:
DETROIT (AP) - With an almost certain bankruptcy filing days away, General Motors is beginning its reinvention, planning to retool one factory to make its smallest vehicles ever in the U.S. and rid itself of the biggest.

As GM's board began two days of meetings Friday to make a final decision on the company's fate, GM was also closing in on a sale of its European Opel unit, and its main union overwhelmingly approved dramatic labor cost cuts. A deal to sell its rugged but inefficient Hummer brand also appeared on the horizon.

The moves provided more clues about what a restructured GM might look like ahead of the expected Chapter 11 filing Monday. Taxpayers will eventually own nearly three-quarters of a leaner GM, with a total government commitment of nearly $50 billion. . . .
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D98G5K080&show_article=1


Artist's rendition of the proposed GM small car:
http://s456.photobucket.com/albums/qq289/LindaBee_2008/th_SmallCarObama.jpg

Quote:
"Today's bankruptcy declaration in federal court by General Motors is an avoidable, crude weapon of mass devastation for workers, dealers, auto suppliers, small businesses and their depleted communities. For GM's voiceless owners -- the common shareholders -- it is a wipeout."--Ralph Nader
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=prnw.20090601.DC25338&show_article=1



And if we had done nothing, and GM had failed, and taken Ford and Chrysler down with it (which it most assuredly would have, without more gov't bailouts), how would the situation be any better?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:14 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Yes. The deficit to the US treasury would be about $100 billion less and we wouldn't be facing more billions in subsidies to keep the new "Government Motors" afloat. There is no evidence that GM's demise would have taken Ford and Chrysler down with it; in fact it might even have helped them.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:21 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Yes. The deficit to the US treasury would be about $100 billion less and we wouldn't be facing more billions in subsidies to keep the new "Government Motors" afloat. There is no evidence that GM's demise would have taken Ford and Chrysler down with it; in fact it might even have helped them.


Bull. All the companies which supplied both GM and Ford would have failed, millions would have lost their jobs, and this at the height of the financial crisis, when there would have been zero liquidity for other companies to snap the pieces up and save people.

Once again, you really haven't thought this through very much, have you? Nothing like proposing simple solutions to very complicated situations.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:28 pm
Everybody can't work for the government Cyclop and retain our quality of life. If we are unwilling to allow a mismanaged or union controlled business to fail; if we are unwilling to allow the free market to work, then pretty soon there won't be enough taxpayers left to sustain much of anything. I prefer to take the medicine early and sustain less damage.

And as most of the government has never designed much of anything efficiently and effectively, I suggest they turn the management of GM over to the Defense Department for the duration. At least they know how to build highly efficient war machines, so perhaps they could come up with efficient cars too:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/varv05282009a20090528041447.jpg
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Everybody can't work for the government Cyclop and retain our quality of life.


Ah, you've descended into ideology when your main argument has been shown to be factually incorrect.

Quote:
If we are unwilling to allow a mismanaged or union controlled business to fail; if we are unwilling to allow the free market to work, then pretty soon there won't be enough taxpayers left to sustain much of anything. I prefer to take the medicine early and sustain less damage.


Then you agree that we should have let ALL the banks and investment houses fail? Just, let the chips fall where they may?

In certain situations, you have to do what is best for the situation - not what your ideology says is the right thing to do. Letting GM and potentially many smaller companies who rely upon it to survive, fail, in the middle of a bad liquidity crisis and recession, would have put a nuclear bomb into our economy and made things much, much worse. How can you possibly think that would have been a good idea to do, last Fall?

You ignore everything that counters your ideology, but that doesn't make for a very smart or convincing argument, now does it?

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
My economic ideology has served me well for a very long time now and so far nobody, and I mean nobody, has demonstrated that it is in any way flawed in principle. And yes, banks and financial institutions that are poorly managed should be allowed to fail. Only then will banks and financial institutions have any incentive to utilize sound lending and management practices. So long as any business counts on Uncle Sam to bail it out if it gets into trouble, it will have no incentive to succeed or care if it gets into trouble.

Some decades ago Chrysler got into trouble and borrowed a substantial amount from the US government, but it had a solid business plan in hand as to how it would fix its problems and how and when it would pay back the loan. And it did. THAT is the way for government to assist a business that is 'too big to fail'. What does it profit it us to pour hundreds of billions of dollars into a failing business with no real hope that it will solve anything?

Take the medicine early rather than prolong the agony at a huge and unjustifiable cost to the people.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

My economic ideology has served me well for a very long time now and so far nobody, and I mean nobody, has demonstrated that it is in any way flawed in principle.


Except for the fact that at the most basic level, it devolves into an unprovable and asinine assertion based on a ridiculous two-dimensional chart of a 100-dimensional problem.

Quote:
And yes, banks and financial institutions that are poorly managed should be allowed to fail. Only then will banks and financial institutions have any incentive to utilize sound lending and management practices. So long as any business counts on Uncle Sam to bail it out if it gets into trouble, it will have no incentive to succeed or care if it gets into trouble.


And, you just don't care what would have happened to the country, if all the major banks, Ford and GM, and thousands of small businesses all failed at the same time? In the name of supporting your ideology, you'd rather see our economy totally tank?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page, before I move on to deconstructing this truly, truly foolish position you've staked out.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:47 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
You'll have to prove to me that the economy wouldn't have tanked worse than it already has to back up your point. And you can't. I would have preferred to take the inevitable medicine without spending more than a trillion dollars of taxpayer money that the government didn't have and not have much of anything to show for it or not even knowing where most of it went.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 12:56 pm


Obama demands that Government Motors produce and sell smaller vehicles that are more fuel efficient.

Smaller vehicles = increased death and carnage of US citizens on this countries roads... Brilliant!!
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 01:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

You'll have to prove to me that the economy wouldn't have tanked worse than it already has to back up your point. And you can't. I would have preferred to take the inevitable medicine without spending more than a trillion dollars of taxpayer money that the government didn't have and not have much of anything to show for it or not even knowing where most of it went.


We had an experiment in letting the economy tank and doing nothing about it; see, Hoover, Herbert. We don't need a replay in order to satisfy your ideology.


Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Jun, 2009 01:28 pm


Will GM be Obama's Amtrak?
0 Replies
 
 

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