Is it me, or is America a tad more racist than the rest of us?

It we could calculate the number of certain racists in America and New Zealand, then we might be able to answer your question definitively based on percentages of total populations.

Does the New Zealand census bureau ask New Zealanders if they are racist?

Alas, US census takers do not.

Even if they did though, we would have the problem of lying racists to deal with.

Another methodology might be to identify all of the instances of institutional racism in both countries.

You might try that.

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@patiodog,

Patiodog, it's been a long time since I've seen your writing talents so well displayed. You should do it more often.

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One inferential set of measures of racism which is often cited in the United States, and which applies to Amerindians and Hispanics as well as those of African descent is the extent to which unemployment, alcoholism/drug absue and crime prevails in those communities. (The reasoning runs that when those "benchmarks" are higher among a minority population, it can be attributed to institutional racism.)

So then, i would ask you to what extent unemployment, alcoholism/drug absue and crime prevail among the members of the Maori community. Or better yet, why don't i go look for some evidence myself. So, for example, from The New Zealand Medical Journal, we have this:

Quote:

The principal finding is that while the total volume of alcohol consumed was similar in the two populations, the drinking patterns differed markedly. Relative to Maori, non-Maori drank more frequently but, on average, 40% less alcohol per drinking occasion. The findings are consistent with previous New Zealand research, and with differences between indigenous and non-indigenous people documented in other countries.

The study contributes to an emerging body of research examining patterns of alcohol consumption and their effects on health. Recent international studies of this type found that at the country level, aggregate consumption (estimated from sales or tax data) and drinking patterns (estimated from survey data) were independently related to the incidence of alcohol-related harm. Heavy episodic drinking was found to be particularly problematic. Rehm and colleagues argue that attention to both total volume and the incidence of heavy episodic drinking is important in understanding and preventing harm at the population level.

The article also continues by comparing the consumption of alcohol among the younger population--with 69% of the Maori population under the age of 35, compared to only 47% of the non-Maori population--and expressing concerns about the implications for mortality and morbidity in the respective populations. (Not lookin' good for the home team, there, partner.)

And, for example, The New Zealand Corrections Department holds that:

Quote:

Certain patterns of alcohol or drug use during adolescence are strongly associated with adverse outcomes. These include road traffic injuries, suicide, violence, foetal alcohol syndrome, and a range of serious health problems. A health survey carried out in 2002-2003 showed that Māori adults were more likely to engage in “hazardous drinking” patterns (defined as “… drinking that carries a high risk of future damage to physical or mental health”). Similar findings have been obtained with Māori youth: when they drink, they tend to drink very heavily. Regular marijuana use is also signiﬁcantly more prevalent among Māori adults than among non-Māori adults.

Note that this is an abstract, and for more complete information, the individual concerned would need to do more research. But also note the link on the right of the page to a .pdf document on the subject of "over-representation" of Maoris in the criminal justice system--which is a clue to crime among the Maori population.

You're looking a little better on the employment front, but it is still not a rosy picture, as this report from the New Zealand Department of Labor shows (that is a "quick facts" page, and more detailed information is to be found on specific demographic groupings):

Quote:

The unemployment rate for Māori remained the same at 7.7% for the year to September 2008. This is also the same figure recorded a year earlier but down significantly from 17.9% for the year to September 1999. The percentage point fall in the Māori unemployment rate since 1999 was greater than the fall for European. However, the Māori unemployment rate remains above the annual average rate for all persons (3.8%).

Not just above the rate for all persons, but twice the rate for all persons. Since Maoris are included under the rubric "all persons," that means that despite the dramatic improvement in nine years, the unemployment rate among Maoris is more than twice as high as that for those who are not Maori.

Perhaps things are not as wonderful in New Zealand as is implied in the tenor of your remarks. People who live in glass houses . . .

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@Setanta,

Thing is, I am not sure that lower employment etc are just markers of "institutional racism"....or at least institutional racism that is still continuing.

I suspect some of it is certainly that, but I think a lot of is the effects of being conquered (in the case of Native Americans, Maoris and Indigenous Australians....loss of feelings of power and control are showing up as markers of immense risk for the mental health of groups, through generations, and these groups who have experienced it in spades....African Americans who are descendants of slaves are clearly a group who have experienced extended powerlessness) and the previous racist policies of governments, and racism in the community.

I have no doubt that institutional racism still exists in all our countries, but I do NOT think that is the only thing leading to more problems in indigenous communities than white ones.

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@aperson,

Y shoud anyone CARE whether there are more racists
in America or in New Zealand ?

What difference does it make ?

David

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@dlowan,

I think that when one hears an expression such as institutional racism, one automatically thinks of governmental institutions. But there are social institutions, as well. Hiring someone because they have influence in the old boy net is not evidence of racism, but preferring someone of European descent over someone from the Maori community may well be. Alcoholism, drug abuse and criminal activity could be construed as indirect results of the effects of institutional racism. It was not my intent to suggest that such markers were conclusive evidence--rather i was attempting to put this on a basis other than anecdotal remarks. One has to wonder if the author has diligently queried everyone of Maori descent in his acquaintance to know just how racist they perceive their society to be. It is also worth referring again to the link i mentioned on the page from the NZ Department of Corrections, suggesting that Maori are "over-represented" in the penal system. Certainly in terms institutional racism on the part of a government institution, that's always a pretty glaring figure--as in the much higher proportion of blacks and Hispanics in the American penal system with regard to their proportion of the population, than the proportion of whites.

More than anything else, i am convinced of the paucity of the titular argument for exactly the reason which Patio Dog mentioned. If one goes only on anecdotal evidence, and one is scrupulously honest, one must surely acknowledge that there is racism in all societies. If one reads history with an open mind, one can only come to the conclusion that racism (and its concomitant, tribalism) is a common as toothache.

So the question becomes to what extent this is true in either New Zealand or the United States. Abandoning anecdotal evidence, which may give one a feel for the issue, but just as well may mislead, where is one to turn for evidence? I suggested alcoholism, drug abuse, crime and unemployment simply for some markers which might be construed as evidence of institutional racism, both governmental and social. There may well be others, and those i have proposed i certainly do not allege to be conclusive.

But to resolve such a question (which may not in fact admit of resolution), we'd have to do better than vague feelings about what obtains. Certainly, the author may be self-deluded as to the relatively lower prevalence of racism in his own society, and i frankly can't think he has any basis to reasonably estimate the prevalence in the United States.

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On this topic, you will find this Comment interesting

Barak Obama, and the people who want him killed.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/comment/2008/11/barack-obama-an.html

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Why would one consider that interesting or à propos for this topic? Does it constitute evidence that the United States is more racist than other societies? Is it evidence that "the rest of us" are less racist than Americans? Does it illuminate the question of in whom "the rest of us" consist?

Do you suggest that members of the National Front would not entertain similar fantasies? Do you suggest that skinheads in European nations are an extreme fringe phenomenon, while racists in the United States represent the mainstream?

I found your contribution not to be helpful.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Hey tosspot, learn how to copy and paste.

OinkSigDavid logic.

Obama has two legs.

Hitler had two legs.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!!

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

Why would one consider that interesting or à propos for this topic? Does it constitute evidence that the United States is more racist than other societies? Is it evidence that "the rest of us" are less racist than Americans? Does it illuminate the question of in whom "the rest of us" consist?

Do you suggest that members of the National Front would not entertain similar fantasies? Do you suggest that skinheads in European nations are an extreme fringe phenomenon, while racists in the United States represent the mainstream?

I found your contribution not to be helpful.

Finklestein is a a columnist in a British newspaper, but the timing of some comments sent to his blog on this topic led him to believe they came from America.
He was surprised, and I am surprised, that readers of such a newspaper as his would express themselves in this way.
There are many comments on that page underneath his piece, which come from all over.

I found it interesting, if an unpleasant subject. I would certainly not suggest that racism is solely or mainly an American problem. It's less obvious in more homogeneous societies, that's all, and the more mixed Britain becomes, the more trouble we seem to have.

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@hingehead,

U mean we are NOT going to die ?

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McT, i understood that your writer was suggesting that the comments came from the United States--which is precisely why i objected. Now i find your remark about "homogenous societies" rather odd. It's not as if the United States were an ethnic or "racial" oasis in a world of homogenous states. In fact, i would say that there is a more thorough representation of ethnic groups in the United States than in most European nations--after all, we get 'em coming and going, so to speak.

My objection was that the article seemed to be one more cheap shot against the United States. That is why i mentioned the National Front. Every nation has their loonies, and decided upon a "squeaky wheel" principle that one nation is more plagued than another is rather facile, in my view. I rather suspect that people who were not uncomfortable with the election of Mr. Obama, those who had no fantasies of his assassination, simply did not reply to the blog.

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@Setanta,

I would say it's not an attempt at a cheap shot. He was surprised by the comments he received. He deplored the comments, as did many of the international contributors who made comment on the matter in the blog.

I would say that this is further proof that racism can be encountered everwhere and seemingly the possession of an education (as may be assumed in readers of The Times of London?) does not prevent it.

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@McTag,

I wasn't trying to beat up on you, McT . . . i get a little testy when people so thoughtlessly and casually make the Americans the bad guys in any scenario.

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Is it significant whether people of one particular opinion
are present in greater numbers in one jurisdiciton,
as distinct from another jurisdiction ?

Is that information helpful in some way ?

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

It could be, however the author of this thread didn't make an attempt to suggest why it might be in the case of New Zealand vs America.

Obviously he was just engaging in casual musing (with perhaps a bit of America Bashing in mind).

To the extent there is any significance in such comparisons involving America (Note that we likely will never see a thread that compares the levels of racism in The Sudan and The Netherlands) it centers on whether or not American Exceptionalism is bankrupt and/or America has any right to declare, as a world leader, a firm position on the High Road.

It would be a welcome consequence of Obama's election that anti-Americans were deprived of one very large arrow in their quiver, but that's not likely to be the case because anti-Americanism in most places in the world is not fueled by its perceived level of racism.

As Setanta has pointed out, racism is a common element of human society throughout the world.

If it's existence within a nation excludes that nation from motoring on the High Road, the High Road will be devoid of any and all traffic.

It usually comes down to the notion that any country which is smug enough to consider itself exceptional needs to be damned near perfect.

This is the sort of reaction that hubris is sure to evoke, but it doesn't mean it is rational.

Superman may be smug about his powers, but that doesn't mean The Batman can hold a candle to him as a superhero.

America can be flawed and still be exceptionally virtuous.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

it centers on whether or not American Exceptionalism is bankrupt
and/or America has any right to declare, as a world leader,
a firm position on the High Road.

Now that the Third World War is over,
I do not see how America can continue to be a "world leader";
leading toward WHAT ? It is no longer a matter of defeating communism.

Every citizen has his own distinct, personal opinion of what is: "the high road".
No one 's opinion is better than anyone else 's.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

David you are on a fringe even I can't reach.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

OK
I don 't discern a need to be reached.

Having fun is all that matters.

David

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@dlowan,

Yea I probably shouldn't be throwing stones, you're right.

I suppose I was just shocked at the racism in America that we would (almost) never get here.

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Is it me, or is America a tad more racist than the rest of us?

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