California Voters Approve Gay-Marriage Ban

Jesus just followed in his mother's celibacy; virgin, virgin = no blood line.

Those guys who wrote the book made sure there was no way to check the existence of Mary or Jesus.

Otherwise, we would have had the grandson of god, and common sense tells us that would be an impossible position for the bible story.

I believe you are correct on this one... I left a unattached quote at the end of the last sentence of my post on this. Just before the name Dan Brown. That line or none of the other lines are quoted from any source but my own. I have many years in biblical thought and if I was quoting a source here I would tell you. Jesus did have half brothers and sisters but their father was Joseph and not "God"...

The statement is not meant to be taken any more literally than the statement of a tree being in someone's eye. It was a figure of speech.

With God all things are possible, even for a rich man or woman to get into heaven. There are more temptations with rich people, greed and just having more money to get into trouble. However, Abraham was rich and he is paradise.

Gen. 13:2 And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Not all things are possible with God... God cannot overstep his own laws. God cannot become pure evil. God by setting boundaries has limited himself. Is it possible for God to become a mouse and get chased and eaten by a cat? Is it possible for God to cease to exist?

Also, the old testament people (such as Abram) are not promised a place in heaven but a place in paradise.... (paradise is always a place on earth)

So the rich man would have seen Abraham in paradise not heaven. People did not gain access to heaven until Jesus came.

I don't accept the things I read in the Bible on face value figuratively or not.

Rex, I'm not sure how anyone can determine the messages in the bible whether figuratively or literally, because of the many contradictions and omissions. One would need to rationalize away common sense and logic to accept what is in the bible.

Yes ambiguity rules. The truth is usually false.

God can do all things if he so choose if wants He can turn himself into a mouse and get eaten by a cat. However that was not my point. My point was that all people, rich or poor, can get into heaven if they obey the two greatest commandments, to love God and your fellow man. It is just harder for rich people to do so because of greed and the many opportunities for temptations is what was meant by the saying "harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle."

Paradise is the place you go to before heaven after you die. Jesus told the man on the cross, that this day you will be with me in paradise. Abraham and many others in the OT were already in the kingdom of heaven which was fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Mat. 8: 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

I have derailed this thread long enough with theological discussions, sorry for the change of subject of the thread.

revelette, I find it interesting that the two rules you state has been broken by god. If he loved man so much, why did you kill most of them by the world flood? He has also used his rath against all life forms on this planet; is that not a sin? They are not only a contradiction but an oxymoron.

Don't forget; he killed many innocent fauna and flora - and humans in his dastardly act. How many babies died?

Damn CI that is a darned good point! How could so many babies be guilty of sin continually to the extent that death was the only remedy to an all powerful God of supposed love?

It is more likely that the God of the old testament was a sick devil. We hang dictators from ropes who perpetrate such evil.

Yes murder is a capital crime and the God of the Bible is a demon guilty of this. Not only are this God's perceptions of how life evolved on this earth wrong but also this Gods laws have caused the deaths of many innocent (including Sodom and Gomorrah). So there were some evil people in Sodom did this mean that thousands of children should die? NO! And God supposedly has foreknowledge so he saves Lot who later gets drunk and commits incest. Was God in his foreknowledge condoning incest while condemning homosexual love when he judged Lot as righteous? Until these blaring questions are answered the God of the old testament was a beast and not a God of ethical law and order.

I am not anti Hebrew as I am also not anti any race but I am anti religion in MANY cases. I am not anti God but I cannot trust these Gods of antiquity any more than I can trust a murderer or a rapist of the soul.

There is much truth in these religions also but must we acquire our truth from a hateful murderers and near sighted Gods?

The same goes for the new testament it talks of love but demonstrates hatred and its own condemnation of others condemns itself.

Men like Paul the Apostle who admittedly did not marry, expecting others to marry in heterosexual marriages are simply hypocritical and peddling a hateful and homophobic doctrine.

There is no true God in this Bible only inherent and errant sophistry masquerading as the truth. Again, I am not saying there is not truth in the New testament but the errors in the literature are so egregious that it renders itself moot. Perhaps there is a God of love but this God has stood by helpless and powerless while his benevolent and loving character and image has been ruthlessly assassinated by homophobes and male chauvinists.

You have described what has been a mystery to me for most of my adult life. How can believing christians rationalize away those simple facts of contradiction? It seems to me that to believe, one must give up common sense and logic, and yet most humans on this planet still believe in one god or another.

Good point, ci. So we've got a god here who allegedly committed the greatest act of mass murder in history, and he's supposed to be worthy of worship?

What a strange sort of situational ethics Christians have.

Strange plus mind-boggling.

On what basis do you think your common sense and logic derives from? Key us in to the moment in history when common sense and logic were widely practiced before the Christian religion became established. And suggest the mechanisms by which it came into being and was operated.

How do you define common sense and logic. I'm aware how easy it is to bandy the terms around in immature conversations as if one is a superior adept of the practice of the virtues. So you needn't bother with any variations of asserting that you are.

spendi, Common sense and logic are thought processes that is ageless; it seeks to find truth through observable evidence. Things that are not observable are based on philosophy and faith.

I am not sure if Common sense seeks to find truth through observable evidence.

That which may seem common and sensible {common sense} to Spendius may not seem common and sensible to you!

I knew he wouldn't answer the questions rl. I only asked them to expose the fact that he wouldn't because he can't. Again.

Not just observable evidence but testable evidence where we observe and measure the results. But to simply make rash decisions, judgements and doctrines where no testable and observable evidence is presented becomes nothing more than a house of cards, error built upon error.

Rex, Well stated. Without testable evidence, most human realities are built on emotion, religion, and guesses.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Comment: The Bible says the tables are written in our hearts. Yet it seems the heart is subjective to other influences. Many Christians read and study the life of Jesus only to arrive at a different set of tables. Although those words seem sincere, honest and truthful, what ruler do we measure these tables with?

Ephesians 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Comment: To comprehend with all the saints the full dimensions of love which passeth knowledge...

Then the same author writes this.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

Comment: My question is why did not dimensions of Christ's love written in the tables of the heart and the fullness of God prevent the author from writing such a sexist statement?

After the author tell us the heart will know the fullness of God then the author tells wives to obey their husbands in every thing.

I guess the author does not know some men very well... Here in Maine only a few weeks ago we had a husband shoot his wife to death while she was calling 911 right in front of the kids then he killed himself.

Is this love of God testable, measurable, observable? How can the author make such a seemingly sure and sincere statement about us knowing God's love then make a blanket statement that all women are to OBEY THEIR HUSBANDS IN EVERY THING? Don't women have hearts too? Are they not just as connected to God and Jesus as their husbands? Are not the "tablets of their hearts" equally as important? Do they not have just as much right to live their own lives as they see fit? A husband can just get a divorce if he disapproves of his wife's behavior so also a wife should have the same right to leave her husband if he becomes unreasonable. There should be no difference when it comes to human rights between (adult) males with females, males with males and females with females.

Did the love of God pass knowledge to the writer of Ephesians as he claims to know the length breadth depth and height of Christ's love?

Ephesians 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart,

Comment: Did the love of Christ and the fullness of God pass knowledge to the author of Ephesians that slavery is inhumane, degrading and immoral?

What measurement can we use to gauge the human heart? Is this not disingenuous to say we will KNOW the love of Christ and the dimensions of the heart then to tell wives and slaves to OBEY others? Isn't this simply proof that this premise is faulted to say the least?

How shall we know the love of God but by our own liberty and self examination? When gays see husbands and wives killing each other then their own same sex love seems justified. When wives see their husbands behaving poorly then obedience to their own heart is justified. And as for slaves, ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

This love of Christ passed sexism, bigotry and bondage to the writer of Ephesians... How can we expect today's Christians to behave any better?

Jesus says he is the way but it seems the author of Ephesians took a wrong turn...

Those were times when most cultures believed the female to be unequal to men. Many still do.