12
   

Question for All Obama Haters

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 09:26 am
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

Bella Dea wrote:

Do you just sit around in your dark little room, twiddling your thumbs and thinking up new and ridiculous claims against Obama?

I am intrigued at where you come up with these things.

I am all for exposing liars or those who aren't fit to hold the office they are running for. But come on people. Some of these accusations are just laughable. And totally unresearched.

I find it exteremely interesting that you opened the thread without giving a single example of the type of lie you are asking us to discuss.
Obama is a muslim.

Good one. Who said it? Anyone in a position of authority? Was it some significant fraction of the Conservatives on this board? I'm sure you know that you'll inevitably get that kind of thing from a handful of people on both the left and the right in an election year. What is the truth about his religious background?
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 10:28 am
@H2O MAN,
First of all, I never said I supported Obama. But thanks for being a big ass and calling me out on something you don't even know.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 10:31 am
@Woiyo9,

Quote:
As dumb as you may think "the list" may be, is equal how dumb this Post is.


You're right THIS post is dumb.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 10:36 am
Notice how all the neocons come running here to smear me.

I don't need to list all the lies spread about Obama. I think we all know which made up email chains and other bogus crap has fallen back on the people who told them as outright lies or gross stretches of truth. There are so many, how can you not know about them?

Every day there is something new about how evil Obama is. Ok, so maybe he isn't fit to lead the country, but can't you at least leave out all the negative bullshit that is so untrue, it can barely escape the lips of a compulsive liar?

You people who rush to print/post/tell about Obama's terrible weaknesses before even finding out if they are true, not only give normal Republican's a bag name, they give American's a bad name.
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:05 am
@Bella Dea,
I am no "neocon" nor did I smear you. I simply pointed out that O-Biden took their ball and went home when they didn't like the fact the game wasn't going their way. I think it says something about them - they expect the government to help them out when they get in a jam. Trouble is, they are the government. And they want higher office?
Woiyo9
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:14 am
Quote:
"Ok, so maybe he isn't fit to lead the country, but can't you at least leave out all the negative bullshit that is so untrue, it can barely escape the lips of a compulsive liar?"


If he is unfit to lead the Nation as you suggest, why is it when others point out the reasons he is unfit, you are calling it "negative bullshit"?

This is the problem with you liberals. You refuse to accept any criticism of your candidates as if their opinion is the only correct opinion for everyone to worship.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:16 am
@Bella Dea,
Bella Dea wrote:

Notice how all the neocons come running here to smear me.

I don't need to list all the lies spread about Obama. I think we all know which made up email chains and other bogus crap has fallen back on the people who told them as outright lies or gross stretches of truth. There are so many, how can you not know about them?

Every day there is something new about how evil Obama is. Ok, so maybe he isn't fit to lead the country, but can't you at least leave out all the negative bullshit that is so untrue, it can barely escape the lips of a compulsive liar?

You people who rush to print/post/tell about Obama's terrible weaknesses before even finding out if they are true, not only give normal Republican's a bag name, they give American's a bad name.

And, of course, all of the comments about McCain are fair, true, and concentrate on his campaign platform.
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:21 am
@cjhsa,
Again, why do people just jump right in and assume things? I didn't say YOU were.
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:24 am
@Woiyo9,
Quote:
Quote:
"Ok, so maybe he isn't fit to lead the country, but can't you at least leave out all the negative bullshit that is so untrue, it can barely escape the lips of a compulsive liar?"

If he is unfit to lead the Nation as you suggest, why is it when others point out the reasons he is unfit, you are calling it "negative bullshit"?

This is the problem with you liberals. You refuse to accept any criticism of your candidates as if their opinion is the only correct opinion for everyone to worship.


Uh no. The negative bullshit is all the stuff that has no or little factual basis, of which there is a ton of created by idiot conservatives who are scared of someone who looks different from them.

Racism is alive and well here in the good ol' u s of a.
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:25 am
@Brandon9000,
Oh good grief no.

But that's not what this thread is about, is it?

And if you googled lies about Obama and lies about McCain, who do you think would get more hits?

Let's try it.....
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:26 am
10,500,000 pages linked to Lies about Obama
509,000 pages linked to Lies about McCain

0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:30 am
@Bella Dea,
I didn't assume anything. Your comment was generalized.
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:31 am
@cjhsa,
Yes it was. Because, let's face it, there are certain very obvious Neocons in this forum. We all know who they are.
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:44 am
@Bella Dea,
Quote:
Uh no. The negative bullshit is all the stuff that has no or little factual basis, of which there is a ton of created by idiot conservatives who are scared of someone who looks different from them.

Racism is alive and well here in the good ol' u s of a.




Really? So now if you criticize Obamas policies you find it racist?

Justify that comment.

Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:49 am
@Woiyo9,
No, you are not a racist if you challenge Obama's policies.

You are if you make **** up just to scare people into voting for McCain.

Why are you all so defensive?

If you don't do it, why be defensive about it?
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:53 am
@Bella Dea,
And I wonder....does the tag "irrational invective" refer to me, or to the Neocons who like to try to involve us in their imaginary world where Obama is the devil?
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't know why we're split, dAbuzz....both parties are assholes. And every politican before and every after.

It's the nature of the beast.

No matter who we elect, we're screwed.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:59 am
@Bella Dea,
I know who I believe can be generally considered neo-conservative in many of their views.

Somehow I doubt they are the same people you believe to be Neo-Cons.

What does a "Neo-Con" mean to you?

You seem to use as a sustitute for monster.
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:03 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
No, not at all. I mean it as very conservative.

Much more so than myself.

However, just because their views are often radically different from mine, I wouldn't call them monsters.

Some I'd call a little stupid or naive but not monsters.
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:32 pm
@Bella Dea,
Bella Dea wrote:

No, not at all. I mean it as very conservative.

Yeah, neo-conservative has become something of a throw-away label to apply to anyone who's, well, really conservative. But that's wrong; it has a more specific meaning than that, it refers to a specific strand of conservatism. See for example the difference between neo-conservatives like, say, Donald Rumsfeld and so-called paleo-conservatives like Pat Buchanan. Both are very conservative, but within the conservative movement they're each others polar opposites.

Basically - and what follows is my take, anyway, differing arguments are welcome (Finn?) ...

... Neo-conservatives (who include a notable number of converts with a lefty and far-lefty past) apply an aggressive intervenionism to foreign policy, which is framed in a language of idealism. They reject a narrow definition of national interest as purely reacting to direct threats and attacks, and believe that the US should aggressively use its military power to spread democracy and face down totalitarian regimes as a matter of principle. The world can only be safe when the scourges of terrorism and totalitarianism are eradicated, they argue, so it's within a broader definition of national interest to go after them in general, even without provocation.

This attitude contrasts with that of traditional conservatives, who accept that there will always be totalitarian regimes in the world and just want American foreign policy to focus on defending concrete and immediate US interests.

It contrasts even more starkly, in theory, with the realpolitik policies that marked Kissinger-type foreign policy. Realpolitik figureheads would have laughed off the very idea of applying the yardsticks of human rights and democracy in practical foreign policy dealings - that kind of thing was stuff for those naive lefties. Every enemy of your enemy was your friend, even if he was an asshole - he'd be your asshole. That's how you ended up helping those Latin American dictators impose state terror against everyone remotely leftwing, and arming the predecessors of the Taliban to fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

The Reagan era saw the use of some of the grandiose neo-conservative language (spreading democracy across the globe, etc), even as day-to-day foreign policy was one of wholly unscrupulous realpolitik (see: Latin-America). The influence of the neo-conservative framing of foreign policy returned much more strongly in the early Bush years, however, when it informed their fierce interventionism and grandly phrased goals.

Of course, the aftermath of those years have shown their strategies and tactics to be a bust. By declaring a mission far grander than the US had the means to enact and getting bogged way over its head straight away in two wars, the Bush administration just made America look weak. And once America got truly bogged down in Iraq, it just went straight back to realpolitik alliances (such as those with local Sunni paramilitaries) to stabilise the situation.

In fact, right from the start, the idealistic-sounding neo-conservative framing of the war contrasted sharply with the much more unscrupulous ulterior motives that were also at work -- getting control of Iraqi oil, turning the new Iraqi regime into a pliable American base in the Middle-East. The neo-conservatives didn't necessarily see the contradiction: they saw all this in the same terms of establishing an era of benevolent American hegemony in the world. But the contrast was shrill enough to end up making America just look hypocritical and fuel violent local resentment.

So the whole neoconservative project ended up being, well, counterproductive at best. But it was definitely a different kind of conservative project from previous and competing conservative concepts, ranging from those of conservative isolationists to those of the defenders of pure realpolitik. Now all of those people are very conservative, much more conservative than you, but they are very different from each other.
 

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