Should I lie to spare feelings?

I wouldn't stress too much about it. Likely mom invited all the girls in the class without thought to any personal issues between the girls and isn't reading anything into your begging off. Daughter is off the hook, as she should be.

Yup.

Yes I did. And people do it all the time.

I also said she should not tell her daughter it's ok.

Tell me you've never told someone a little lie to spare their feelings?

Yes, I've told my wife lies to spare her hurt feelings, but I've also hurt her feelings when I felt telling the truth was better than keeping it inside. I don't care for her younger brother who makes promises, but doesn't keep it.

I'm one of those who do this, too. Other plans could include planning to wash my hair or my floor. And I don't see the problem with lying like this at all. They don't need to know if they're not in your inner circle. And everybody grows up aware there is this option and will decide what to do when opportunities arise. I don't see a problem with lying, esp in a case like this. It's not just to spare the mean girl's feelings; it's more of a way to protect your daughter. Why should she go when she doesn't want to? Sometimes these lies are just fine. It's often better than coming out with the truth.

So...what are you plan's for this weekend?

After reading your other thread, I wouldn't want to go to this girl's party either.

Hey, I'm sorry if the kid has problems, but you're right, that doesn't mean your kid has to be a doormat.

You can be sensitive to someone's issues without getting sucked into the vortex of their problems.

Oh hey, I just realized something....

When I was about that age I was forced to go to this girls B-day party, who I thought was weird. We didn't even go to school together. It was like my parents knew her parents.

Today this crazy bitch is my sister-in-law.

Beware linkat.

My mother and aunt always "hated" this girl in their small class of girls - she put on airs, took elocution lessions, for example (this was in the early 1900's), Years later their brother married her! Oh, the trauma. They continued to "hate" her for the next, uh, sixty years, especially when a relative of the wife's family then apparently got a deal on a house belonging to one of the husband and my mother and aunt's family who had what would now be called alzheimer's.

Me, as a teen - was I ever sick of that conversation. Over and over...
Major grudge holders, us irish. My cousins and I later vowed to never let that happen between us, and.... so far so good.

So, yeh, no parties you don't want to go to.. good rule.

There is no reason
to associate socially with a person whose company u don 't enjoy.
Its SUPPOSED to be a free country.

U don 't need to make excuses.





David

Because your daughter was the invitee,
SHE is the only judge of what is acceptable.
As the invitee, it falls to her to decide whether to accept or reject the invitation.
There is no one else to decide whether her rejection is "acceptable."

What would be wrong with simply telling the truth?

I am surprised that so much effort is made finding ways to lie (or distract or mislead or whatever else you want to call it).

The problem with this is that whatever the problem is with the social interaction, it will never get addressed or resolved.

Why not say to the parents "my daughter doesn't seem to get along with Fifi, so she would prefer to not come".

This would either lead to a discussion on how to fix the problem (which may be good for either or both of the kids involved) or a resolution where they understand where they stand.

As adults we are constantly playing these kind of games which lead to misunderstandings. Lies often hurt much worse than the truth we are running away from. And... by not addressing these things, we sometime miss out on what could be interesting relationships.

What is to be gained by passing this on to our kids?

It might start a feud,
of unknown length and severity.

Republicans would cease to exist.

What would be wrong with simply telling the truth?
I am surprised that so much effort is made finding ways to lie (or distract or mislead or whatever else you want to call it).

The problem with this is that whatever the problem is with the social interaction, it will never get addressed or resolved.

Why not say to the parents "my daughter doesn't seem to get along with Fifi, so she would prefer to not come".

This would either lead to a discussion on how to fix the problem (which may be good for either or both of the kids involved) or a resolution where they understand where they stand.

Ebrown, this goes back to the thread on manners, which you prefered to call courtesy

First off, there are many other possible results of announcing that the girls don't get along, and one won't be going to the others party. You might feel resolved as to understanding where you stand, but you can't make someone else feel resolved. As david said, it may lead to a long term feud....sure you may choose not to actively participate the feud, but we all can think of ways that it could negatively effect linkats daughter. For instance, this girl seems to have a reputation for egging others on and creating disputes. She might decide linkats girl needs to have disputes directed towards her, and set up scenerios where that will happen....then, as a parent, you would end up getting involved, thus getting involved in a feud. It could happen that in protecting your child, you'd get drug into an ugly mess that is hardly worth it.

Call it manners, call it courtesy. The girl is not going to change her behavior overnight, and the parents are either unaware, don't care, or think their kids behavior is ok. Telling the blunt truth to people whose reaction is unknown could make a huge mess.

Politely begging off saves face for them, and avoids a possible long ugly situation.

I guess that also answers, for me, when a lie is ok.

If you were sure the parents would listen to the truth and take it constructively and act like mature adults, go for it.

If you feel there's a good proabability they could be as pot stirring as the daughter, don't bother throwing pearls (in this case the truth) before swine.

The more I think about this, the more I am sure that lying in this case is a bad idea. The problem is what you are teaching your daughter.

First, what happens when your daughter is on the other side of this issue. When your daughter invites a friend who says she has family plans... you will have taught her that "family plans" sometimes means "I don't like you" (but might mean family plans). People who don't tell the truth make social situations that much more awkward and confusing.

Second, you are teaching her to avoid, rather than face, uncomfortable situations. This is not the way to become a confident person or to learn how to relate to other people.

Sure, there are times that I would lie for my kids (they are few and far between). If I needed to protect someone from a real embarrassing situation that was not in their control... and I was sure that the harm would be worse than the lie.

Lying in this situation doesn't do any good for your daughter. And it doesn't really do any good for the other girl (would you want to be lied to this way?).

Chai,

I guess I disagree with your definition of courtesy. Courtesy means treating others with respect.

If you don't care to be with me, and I ask to spend time with you, I prefer you tell me to my face. If I find out you weren't really doing your hair, I will be much more hurt and offended then if you respected me enough to just tell me the truth at the start. Lying to avoid an uncomfortable social situation isn't courtesy. It is selfishness.

It made me chuckle that you advocated "courtesy" for people you then referred to as "swine".

This statement is based upon a false, implied premise:
that daughter simply accepts what mother teaches.

Huge lengths of human history have shown us that mothers
n daughters have long disagreed between themselves.

I 've heard that the Chinese character for discord is 2 women
under the same roof. Granted that daughters do not conflict
with their mothers about EVERYTHING, but u surely have
an uncommonly sweet relationship with daughter if she just
learns, accepts uncritically, whatever mother teaches.





David

Treating swine with courtesy can have the effect
of avoiding consequent churlish, retributive porcine misconduct.

Remember, the world is filled with people in various states
and degrees of mental stability, with different values and factual beliefs.





David

ebrown, you chose to miss my point on what would happen. BTW ebrown I was not calling these people swine, I was using an expression we are all familiar with, a metaphor if you will, to describe in a few words, what otherwise would have taken many. You both chose to concentrate on thinking I was calling people swine, rather than considering what I meant by "pearls"

but....relating the pearls before swine expression to the longer paragraph right above it in my previous post......

Pears before swine in this instance could more be taken as "fit your actions to your audience"

Yes ebrown, YOU would appreciate being told upfront that there was a problem between the kids....YOU would then find some way to resolve or accept the situation......YOU would not have a problem with any of this...YOU would be the type of audience that could accept the truth, and deal with it.

Now let's talk about risk....weighing the risk of a bad outcome x performing an action to an unknown factor.

The parents are an unknown factor.

They MIGHT respond well.
They MIGHT seek to remedy, or accept.

or

They MIGHT be offended, and tell you.
They MIGHT be offended and not tell you.
They MIGHT, because of that, somehow let the daughter know they think the Linkats act like they're too good for them.
They MIGHT, even unconsciously, promote the daughter to act poorly toward little linkat.
I could go on with a bunch of other MIGHT's, none of which are pleasant.

The parents might very well get very embarrassed at linkat telling them the truth. Ebrown would not, but ebrown can't control how other people take his well meaning truth.

If these were people that meant quite a bit to the linkat and linkette family, they were people that they mutually desired a friendship, or relationship at some time, it would be worth the risk of telling them the truth, knowing there would be other occassions to work out their differences.

This is not the case.

Linkat doesn't seem to want to be great friends with the parents.
Her girl doesn't want to be friends with a kid that in the past as pulled her into the bathroom and told her to take down her pants so she could see her underwear, then showed her hers. Her girl doesn't want to be friends with someone who pits one group of children against another, apparantly because for her it's fun.

Like david said, and I was totally agreeing with you david, telling them the truth in this case runs a much better chance of creating an unpleasant undercurrent, retaliation, and hard feelings, a feud. I did not advocate being discourteous to them, I advocated backing out of the invitation and letting the parents save face by not bluntly saying our kids don't get along.

The truth does not have to come out in one big fell swoop, like a boulder. Looking at the audience, the swine, it might be better to let the truth be known in a way that may take several steps.

Is this party situation the opportune time to bring up all of the problems with the other girl? Probably not....they'll be more appropriate situations in the futre to present these people with your gift of pearls.

BTW, I believe pearls in this expression stands for bits of wisdom, as the word for pearl derives from the word for wisdom.
I believe swine in this expression stands for someone who is ignorant at this time, and not ready for the wisdom.

ebrown is ready for the pearls.
It's unknown if the parents are ready for them, and if I were linkat I would lay low until I could ascertain if they were ready for them. But, since the party is this weekend....better to give them a pretty trinket that won't offend, but keeps them from casting back something not so nice.

For my part, when people behave in a swineish manner,
I might well take enuf poetic licence to call them swine,
tho people who hear me will understand that I do not mean real pigs.





David