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Colin Powell to Endorse Obama?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:29 am
@hawkeye10,
It seems you already forgot Powell's presentation to the UN to push for war; that is following in Bush's lead.
LionTamerX
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:36 am
@Bi-Polar Bear,
Excellent take. You are a wise man my brother....



Let's hang out soon.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:39 am
@cicerone imposter,
I give him a pass for the UN stuff, Powell was doing his job, which was to speak for the Administration.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:40 am
@hawkeye10,
Your "pass" is meaningless.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:54 am
@ehBeth,
bethie

Understood.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 03:16 pm
Honestly though, Powell is a very reasonable man. It was good that he left the Bush administration. I don't think they were listening to him as much as using his good name. As for Iraq, I'd be willing to bet that things did not play out as the rest of the cabinet and Bush assured him they would.

My cousin worked with him first hand at the State Dept, and had nothing but the best things to say for his abilities.

Like him or not, his endorsement is significant more because he is Colin Powell, less that he is 1) a republican, and 2) a former member of the Bush administration.

T
K
O
Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:37 pm
@Diest TKO,
I think it's a great move at the right time.

Let's say you've always voted Republican and you've been thinking about voting for Obama, but can you trust a Democrat?... what about your loyalty and sense of who you are... but wait, there's one of my favourite fellow Republicans Colin Powell... voting Democrat! Well, damnit, if Colin thinks he has what it takes and McCain doesn't...
Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 10:52 pm
@Eorl,
As good as I feel about it, I heard a story today that made me sad. I got home from work and was talking to the ex online. She asked if I had heard about Powell, and I said yes. She went on to tell me about how her dad and her were riding in a car when they found out and her dad said the following:

"I'm not surprised he supported a brother."
"Would you say this at work?"
"No."
"Then it's hardly appropriate, and I don't find it amusing."

If you heard that Powell had endorsed Obama, you might be able to make some wild conclusions, but if you actually heard Powell's words, it was not about "supporting a brother." The fact that he so quickly reduced Powell's endorsement as merely racial is incendiary.

She was quite upset. Later her mother came to her, not to comfort her, but to try and work the pro-life angle on her...

NOTE: The ex was/is pro-life

... and tried to use that as a reason to excuse her father's words. Needless to say, she was not impressed or moved. The ex is a Obama supporter, and her family votes based on the abortion issue alone.

T
K
O
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:32 am
I watched Colin Powell on Meet the Press. He puts forth common sense reasons for his support of Senator Obama. He views Senator McCain as being a different face with perhaps a few changes, but basically his presidency would be a continuation of the same policies that have harmed this country considerably. He views Senator Obama as the "generational" change that America desperately needs at this time in our history.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:51 am
@Diest TKO,
I'm having similar "sad" experiences with my sister. She has been sending me canned emails that smear Obama. I let her know that I was disappointed that she accepted the content of these smears without question. I find many of her views to be INTOLERABLE in a civilized society. And yet, because she's my sister and I love her dearly, I guess I'm supposed to tolerate her intolerance for the sake of the family harmony?
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 07:12 am
Glenn Greenwald points to an element in Powell's announcement which I haven't seen anyone else isolate and laud. And it is very important...

Quote:
There has been much condemnation over the "Obama-is-a-Muslim" line of GOP attack, but almost all of it has been on the ground that the attack is factually false as applied to the Christian Obama, not on the ground that it is a reprehensible and dangerous line of attack even if it were factually true. Powell bears much of the responsibility, and always will, for the horrific U.S. attack on Iraq (one which, just by the way, resulted in the deaths of at least hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslims), but he deserves credit for using the platform he had this morning to go out of his way to make this vital point when doing so was not necessary (and perhaps not even helpful) in advancing the cause of his endorsement of Obama.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/

At the Guardian, Michael Tomasky has a typically good piece which speaks to the toxic divisiveness which you two find manifesting within your own families.
Quote:
The Republicans have lifted the lid off their rightwing id
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/20/commentanddebate-john-mccain-barack-obama

McCain and Palin (and the campaign architects) are receiving most of the blame for the ugly behavior we are seeing in rallies, not to mention in the mail received by a seriously dull-witted group of high profile conservatives who have lately profaned modern conservatism (Noonan, Parker, etc) and who appear to be surprised at the tone of that mail. But this campaign, as slimy and purposefully divisive as it has been, is not causal. It just focuses some tendencies long evident in American culture, tendencies which have been quite purposefully cultivated over the last two decades or so by, most particularly, talk radio.



0 Replies
 
revel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 07:24 am
@Debra Law,
Sometimes politics can be hard on families. I almost never bring up politics at my in-laws. Every single one of them are die hard republicans who say much of the same things which republicans on this thread and elsewhere say. They are also pretty prejudiced and I think backward thinking. They know my views because there have been a few exceptions and luckily when I am around no one really gets into too much politics anymore.

I read the transcript and he makes a lot of good and logical points. I think this helps with some who were leaning but maybe not quite there yet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27266223/
Transcript above

As for Powell and the infamous UN speech, in responding in this thread I came across this article which suggest that even though a lot of Powell said was heavily in dispute, there was worse things he could have said but he did fight against.

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/jul/15/nation/na-powell15

Quote:
Days before Secretary of State Colin L. Powell was to present the case for war with Iraq to the United Nations, State Department analysts found dozens of factual problems in drafts of his speech, according to new documents contained in the Senate report on intelligence failures released last week.

Two memos included with the Senate report listed objections that State Department experts lodged as they reviewed successive drafts of the Powell speech. Although many of the claims considered inflated or unsupported were removed through painstaking debate by Powell and intelligence officials, the speech he ultimately presented contained material that was in dispute among State Department experts.

Powell’s Feb. 5, 2003, speech to the U.N. Security Council was crafted by the CIA at the behest of the White House. Intended to be the Bush administration’s most compelling case by one of its most credible spokesmen that a confrontation with Saddam Hussein was necessary, the speech has become a central moment in the lead-up to war.

The speech also has become a point of reference in the failure of U.S. intelligence. Although Powell has said he struggled to ensure that all of his arguments were sound and backed by intelligence from several sources, it nonetheless became a key example of how the administration advanced false claims to justify war.

Powell has expressed disappointment that, after working to remove dubious claims, the intelligence backing the remaining points of his U.N. speech has turned out to be flawed.

“It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong, and in some cases deliberately misleading, and for that I am disappointed and I regret it,” Powell said in May. A State Department spokesman said late Wednesday, however, that the United States made the right decision “to go into Iraq, and the world today is safer because we did.”

Offering the first detailed look at claims that were stripped from the case for war advanced by Powell, a Jan. 31, 2003, memo cataloged 38 claims to which State Department analysts objected. In response, 28 were either removed from the draft or altered, according to the Senate report, which was released Friday and included scathing criticism of the CIA and other U.S. intelligence services.

The analysts, describing many of the claims as “weak” and assigning grades to arguments on a 5-star scale, warned Powell against making an array of allegations they deemed implausible. They also warned against including Iraqi communications intercepts they deemed ambiguous and against speculating that terrorists might “come through Baghdad and pick-up biological weapons” as if they were stocked on store shelves.

The documents underscore the extent to which administration and intelligence officials were culling a vast collection of thinly sourced claims as they sought to assemble the case for war. But the origin and full scope of some errors remain unclear because Senate investigators were denied access to a number of relevant documents, according to aides involved in the probe.

The CIA rejected requests for initial versions of what became the Powell presentation on the grounds that they were internal working documents and not finished products. And the Republican-controlled committee did not seek access to a 40-plus-page document that was prepared by Vice President Dick Cheney’s office and submitted to State Department speechwriters detailing the case the administration wanted Powell to make.

According to the Senate report, the idea for the speech originated in December 2002, when the National Security Council instructed the CIA to prepare a public response to Iraq’s widely criticized 12,000-page declaration claiming that it had no banned weapons. It wasn’t until late January 2003 that intelligence officials learned their work would form the basis for a speech Powell would give to the United Nations.

Powell and several of his aides then spent several days at CIA headquarters working on drafts of the speech, in what participants have described as sessions marked by heated arguments over what to include.

When Powell appeared before the U.N., he made a series of sweeping assertions that have crumbled under postwar scrutiny " including claims that Iraq had chemical weapons stockpiles, was pursuing nuclear weapons and that “there can be no doubt that Saddam Hussein has biological weapons and the capability to rapidly produce more, many more.”

But the documents in the Senate report show that earlier drafts of the speech contained dozens of additional, disputed claims; they provide the most detailed glimpse to date into the last-minute scramble to strike those claims from the text.

Several of the dubious statements in the early drafts had to do with alleged Iraqi efforts to thwart weapons inspections that had been restarted by the U.N.

One allegation was that Iraq was trying to keep incriminating weapons files from falling into the hands of inspectors by having operatives carry the sensitive documents around in cars. The State Department reviewers called the claim “highly questionable” and warned that it would invite scorn from critics and U.N. inspection officials.

Another claim was that Iraq was having members of its intelligence services pose as weapons scientists to dupe U.N. inspectors. But the State Department noted that such a ruse was “not credible” because of the level of sophistication it would require.

“Interviews typically involve such topics as nuclear physics, microbiology, rocket science and the like,” the State Department reviewers wrote, indicating that even a well-rehearsed intelligence operative would be hard-pressed to pull off such a charade.

In their critique, State Department analysts repeatedly warned that Powell was being put in the position of drawing the most sinister conclusions from satellite images, communications intercepts and human intelligence reports that had alternative, less-incriminating explanations.

In one section that remained in the speech, Powell showed aerial images of a supposed decontamination vehicle circling a suspected chemical weapons site.

“We caution,” State Department analysts wrote, “that Iraq has given

The presence of a water truck “is common in such an event,” they concluded.

The experts labeled as “weak” a claim that a photograph of an Iraqi with “marks on his arm” was evidence that Baghdad was conducting biological experiments on humans. The language was struck from the speech, although Powell told the Security Council that Iraq had been conducting such experiments since the 1980s.

State Department analysts also made it clear that they disagreed with CIA and other analysts on the allegation that aluminum tubes imported by Iraq were for use in a nuclear weapons program. “We will work with our [intelligence community] colleagues to fix some of the more egregious errors in the tubes discussion,” the memo said.

In the speech, Powell acknowledged disagreement among analysts on the tubes, but included the claim. The Senate report concluded last week that the tubes were for conventional rockets.

In a section on nuclear weapons, the analysts argued against using a communications intercept they described as “taken out of context” and “highly misleading.” There is no more information on what was in the intercept, but Powell in his speech referred to intercepted communications that he said showed that “Iraq front companies sought to buy machines that can be used to balance gas centrifuge rotors.”

Aside from the two memos, the Senate report refers to other language that was deleted from drafts of Powell’s speech, although it is not clear who urged the items to be struck.

In one case, Powell was to say that the aluminum tubes were so unsuitable for use in conventional rockets that if he were to roll one on a table, “the mere pressure of my hand would deform it.” Department of Energy engineers said that statement was incorrect.

For all their skepticism, State Department analysts did not challenge some of the fundamental allegations in the Powell speech that have since been proved unfounded. Chief among them is the claim that Iraq had mobile biological weapons laboratories, an accusation based largely on information from an Iraqi defector code-named “Curveball.”

What the State Department didn’t know at the time was that a CIA representative who had met with Curveball found him to have a drinking problem and to be highly unreliable. The CIA representative’s red flags were not relayed to Powell until recently, a State Department official said, when then-CIA Director George J. Tenet contacted Powell to tell him that problems with Curveball would be detailed in the Senate report.






cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 10:18 am
@Debra Law,
Funny that you mention the political differences between you and your sister. I have the same differences with "all" of my siblings; they're all republicans and christians, and I'm an independent and atheist - married to a buddhist. When I look at our wedding video, my mother was not happy that I married a buddhist - in a buddhist church. We still "argue" about politics, but less and less, because we understand none of us will change our positions. We still have sibling luncheons a few times every year, and enjoy them very much.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 10:20 am
@revel,
I have the same problems with my siblings; I don't understand how they can claim to be a christian, and not allow gays and lesbians to marry. That's only one contradiction of many in their beliefs that I don't understand.
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 10:31 am
@Diest TKO,
Quote:
She was quite upset. Later her mother came to her, not to comfort her, but to try and work the pro-life angle on her...

NOTE: The ex was/is pro-life

... and tried to use that as a reason to excuse her father's words. Needless to say, she was not impressed or moved. The ex is a Obama supporter, and her family votes based on the abortion issue alone.


You might want to send your ex a link to this video as a way to help her talk with her family regarding their one-issue voting based on abortion. I think it is one of the best discussions on the issue that I've heard

http://able2know.org/topic/124243-1#post-3443382
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 11:28 am
@cicerone imposter,
Well I guess it would depend on whether you are talking about traditional (fundamental) Christianity or Christianity when talking of tolerance of gay marriage and the church which is a separate subject from injecting religious beliefs into government. But this seriously digresses from the discussion. Very Happy

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 11:53 am
@revel,
I don't think there is any way to separate fundamental christianity or christianity concerning this issue of gays and lesbians.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CI, we would have to move this discussion into a religious thread to get into the details which would explain what I mean.
cjhsa
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:07 pm
@Diest TKO,
Oh give me a break. When 99/100 blacks are gonna vote for a brother, your argument is dumb as dirt.
cjhsa
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:16 pm
@revel,
Colin's true "colors" come shining through.
 

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