I Am Getting Desperate

My Vet said if you want your dog to poop and pee inside that you train them on paper. If you have a yorkie or something no problem. But I can't imagine if you have a 70 lb dog you want them to go inside ever.

Not my own idea - I started on paper and was chastised by my vet. If you want to train them to go outside you have to take them outside to poop and pee - is what she told me.

As far as holding them down goes. I was kind. I talked to them and soothed them but they could not move until I wanted them to. It was not unkind at all. It was firm...and I never had to work at being dominant again after those first few weeks.

Looking at it from the dog's viewpoint, I don't think it sounds cruel.

In the wild, animals will ostrasize (sp?) members that aren't shaping up.

caribou, I didn't say throw the dog down.

I said hold him down. Just like another dog or wolf would do.

That's what wolves pack do with each other as training every day.

we had problems with our third dog, and did training to get a handle on the situation. The first lesson we were told by the dog trainer that she considered training the dogs to be her secondary job, her main job was to train the owners. This made an impression. Every time after when dogs were acting out in class she would point out how the dog was just being a dog, that the problem was with what the handler was doing. The classes were hard on the ego, but effective.

Chai,
I lived with a dominant dog. When she was a puppy, there were many sweep-the-legs, pin to the floor, "throw downs".
But it was never without reason. It was about dominance.
Talking back attitude was a definite "throw down". (barking for attention, biting)
Standing there doing nothing bad, was not.

Bella sounds like she dealing with a dominance issue. The entire family, baby included, needs to be dominant over the dogs. This takes training, and constant reinforcement. Postive reinforcement as much as possible. A good "throw down" when nothing else works.

I believe in proper crate training

There could be some boredom problems too. Do the dogs get attention in the form of exercise every day? Train them during the play time. Train them during the walks. Train them to do something useful and fun. Make training fun.
Training isn't something you do for awhile and then get to stop, not with some dogs. And most dogs are happier with jobs to do.

I'm just reading along and no expert. In my inexpert way, I think of 8-9 hours as tough for a puppy or teen rambunctious dog.

I never left the Pacc for more than four hours, which happened when I had gallery openings, but .. I was able by circumstances not to do that, and felt better about 1 to 2 than 4. But he was older when I got him and past adolescent dogness.

My business partner's dobie was adorable but ate everything in the house probably just past a year in age, hard to remember the exact age. She, the business partner, is sharp on animal training and the dobie shaped up shortly. But during the bad time, glasses, wallets, chocolate fudge cakes (yes, she knew about chocolate, who knew he could get up that high), my expensive red suede coach purse that I got at the SF a2k gathering meeting, well, ok, on sale.. all were fodder for Mr. Jaws.

So, there were a few days when we had clients some hours away and needed to do a site visit with non clear hours to get back to our houses. Those few days I put Pacco in doggy day care. One place made him nervous, and me too for that reason and because we needed to get back by 5 pm - and the male dobie became mother dog, standing over him - so I heard. A second place was a kennel run by a veterinarian, and he was more mellow there, with his own compartment and walkies.

But 8 - 9 hours may be fine - I just don't know. Can the dogs get out in the yard when you are gone?

8 to 9 hours is indeed very long for a young dog...if that's the case, it does sound like boredom and pining for attention. especially if there is baby around. I would think it's not a second dog syndrome, but rather a second child syndrome...the pup seems to be demanding more pup time for himself.

i know little about training but love boxers more than most.... littlek would tell you how rambunctious Bootsie was as a young lass, but she aged into the most graceful and sweetest lady ever. boxers are very hyper at young age, and need a lot of exercise, work, and attention.

discipline, period.

what i found worked the best for discipline was to leave the dog outside for a period suitable for the error.

pee, poopy, all day.

chew stuff up all day and all night

bite someone or another animal? (the cat and my other dog) a few days.

something trivial, a few hours.

i really had no trouble with my current dog though... i did outside maybe 5 times.

dont forget to praise the dog!

90% praise 10% discipline, and dont forget walks they work wonders for troubled dog youngsters.

There is a "Daily Puppy" newspaper that might help you find a solution, Bella.
http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/

and here especially for Boxer pups http://www.dailypuppy.com/articles/boxer-puppy_14.html

Thing is, I don't remember 12 months as being some sort of cutoff for my business partner's dobie's adolescent behavior, despite her developed training ability. Her husband was less amused.. (On his side, he was never pet oriented in the first place and got more and more accommodating as years went by, with some genuine aggravation as roadblocks.)

Still, 8-9 hours, both large dogs in the house?

That sounds astounding to me, but I'm not that knowledgeable. Maybe that works for some and I just don't know.

This friend/bus. partner did rodeo as a teen, dressage as an adult, and had several dobies before the one I'm talking about, including one thrown off a truck in front of her on an LA freeway. AND the new sweet dobie did eat my purse when he was older than a year, if I'm correct on that. A year is not, I think, some kind of dial number.

Okay, okay, he didn't actually eat the purse. He did a major job on the lining and some of the affixed decorative stuff. I still have the purse, which I did really like, as sort of a sculpture. Also that was my wallet in the list. But not my glasses, or chocolate cake, etc.

Can you tell I loved that dobie? A mensch dog.

Yes, having 2 big lugs in the house is a lot to handle but we don't mind that part. We are forced to keep our house picked up, things put away and anything breakable out of the dogs reach. We have a good sized house (2000 sq ft) so they have room.

They don't have access to the back yard while we are gone, primarily because they can't wipe their own feet. I'd really be crazy if I came home every day to muddy dog tracks all over my living room carpet. And we can't confine them to the kitchen and back yard (if we had a doggie door) because they've proven time and time again that they can get over or around any barrier I set up. Zoe jumped over the back of a couch without much trouble once....a gate doesn't keep them in.

This weekend, Bailey was a little angel. I think whoever said that it was an attention issue might be right.

Oh and I know that his puppy behavior won't go away at a year but I assume that he should know where to pee and poo by a year.

How long do you walk them for? A common theme on that dog whisperer show is to walk your dogs for something like 30-40 minutes every day. The excercise calms them down and it's a bonding thing too. Especially with high-energy dogs.

how about putting a door in your kitchen separating it from the rest of the house?

Great minds..
I was thinking of adding on a back porch.. but a kitchen door would be easier, and the kitchen would be warmer in winter than an unheated back porch.

The newspaper technique
was intended for puppies.
So far as I remember, it was not applied to adult dogs,
but I don 't pretend to be an expert on that.

The old concept was that u take a newly adopted little puppy
and confine him in a room whose floor was fully covered
with fully spread out sheets of newspaper,
so that he gets used to relieving himself on the paper.
( Forget about trying to teach him how to read the paper; takes too long.)


After that, u remove one spread out sheet
of newspaper, and remove another sheet progressively
until there are no more newspapers left.

The theory was that he is then let outside for sanitary relief.
What your veterinarian said seemed a little different than that.

I am not sure what to do with newly adopted adult dogs.
Ideally, thay 'd already be housebroken as puppies.

Maybe try to find a book on this topic,
or Google it ?




David

It sounds like your dog is simply untrained. The problem isn't with the dog, it's with the owner.



If your dog hasn't been taught at least the basic commands--come, sit, down, and stay--nothing else you do will work.



Engaging in that kind of power struggle with your dog is just plain crazy. You don't have to "display dominance" over your dog. You do have to act like you are the boss or the one in charge. That is what obedience training accomplishes. Start with the basic commands--come, sit, down, and stay--teaching one at a time, while the dog is on a leash. And training requires repetitions, consistency, praise, and patience on the part of the owner--practice, practice, practice. When your dog learns to obey your basic commands, without hesitation, he is learning you are the boss. Most dogs want to please their owners, you just have to teach the dog how to behave. At the age of one year, your dog should master those basic commands pretty quickly, but you still need to practice formal training at least a few minutes every day to keep him on his toes.

I think the training methods of Brian Kilcommons are far superior to those of the Dog Whisperer. Brian has several excellent books you can buy or even probably get from your local library. I have used his book Good Owners, Great Dogs, and it is very, very good. His new book and DVD for puppies also sounds quite good. You can check out his Web site which has the books, as well as a message board.

http://www.familydoginc.com/about.html

You probably also need a very large crate--at least big enough for the dog to walk around in--or a high gate to put across a kitchen or bathroom door.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+13845+12521&pcatid=12521

You need a method of confining the dog when you are not home, or when you are sleeping, or when the dog needs "time out" for bad behavior until all that chewing and tearing behavior is under control. I prefer a large crate, but a gate might work, although you will need a tall one, like the one shown in that link.

Get him lots of large rawhide bones to chew on and large rubber Kong toys which are fairly indestructible. He can learn that it is all right to chew on some things but not on others.

I would get one of Brian Kilcommons books and start from there. Practice all the basic commands until the dog obeys all of them, and then add others such as "No", "stop", "give", etc., as necessary. Practice and consistency should do the trick. Remember, you are teaching your dog proper behavior--you are not trying to dominate him, you are simply trying to train him--and your dog is capable of learning if you teach him properly. At first you might sometimes use small food rewards to help him learn (just a very tiny piece of something he likes), but always give verbal praise and gradually, but rapidly, decrease the use of any food treats so the dog does not expect them all the time.

If all else fails, I would get a single in-home consultation from the best professional dog trainer you can find. Or contact Brian Kilcommons and ask if he knows someone in your area. A single session should not cost an exhorbitant amount, and a good trainer should be able to tell you and show you exactly what you need to do in a single session.

Your dog sounds like a normal, but untrained, adolescent dog, who has not learned to obey you, or learned the limits of what he can or cannot do, simply because you haven't invested the necessary time in teaching him. If you spend the time training him it will pay off, and he will be much more of a pleasure to live with.

The sorts of attitudes, by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson (Brian's wife), in the links below, are quite different than those advocated by the Dog Whisperer. They stress teaching your dog, and helping him to learn, rather than trying to dominate the dog. The goal is still to have an obedient dog, but also for you and your dog to enjoy each other and not to engage in power struggles. After basic obedience training is completed, you simply teach, and remind, your dog that you are in charge by making him earn praise, attention, and treats.

http://www.mysmartpuppy.com/articles/YoureGrounded.htm

http://www.mysmartpuppy.com/articles/SixStepstoaBetterBehavedDog.htm

http://www.mysmartpuppy.com/articles/YourMostPowerfulTool.htm

Thanks Firefly but we can't crate him. He literally bent the bars of his crate with his teeth. I can't allow him to do that. I don't want him to hurt himself. And when put in a room where he couldn't get anything, he ate the door frame. He does not do well being confined.

As for commands, he can sit and shake.

I am going to check out those links. Thanks!

If the dog trys eating the door frame when you confine him in a small room, get something like Bitter Apple

http://www.petco.com/product/2094/Grannick-s-Bitter-Apple.aspx

Spray it on the door frame, or on anything else you don't want him chewing on. Most dogs do not like the way this tastes and it will promptly stop unwanted chewing on anything it is sprayed on. I had a dog who gnawed on furniture when she was teething and Bitter Apple stopped that pronto. If your dog turns out to like this stuff, there are other similar products you can try until you find one he doesn't like. And you can spray it all over the bars of his crate to stop him from chewing those. The idea is to outwit the dog, not give in to him.

Are you giving him plenty of things to chew on? I've never had a problem when I've given my dogs rawhide bones, in fact I've had more problems from the allegedly digestible hard Booda Bones, and my dogs just never liked the Nylabones. But a flavored natural rawhide bone or two or three really was a treat for them. Young dogs need to chew on something, and better a piece of rawhide than your shoes or your table legs. Don't get pigs ears or any of the other animal parts they sell as dog chews, just try a big natural rawhide bone, flavored or unflavored--but give it to him as a treat after he has obeyed a command from you, such as coming when you call him inside the house. A big rawhide bone can keep a dog occupied and happy for quite a long time--even if he is crated.

Speaking of crates, is this the kind of crate you have for your dog--the kind that is like a cage?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+10627+540&pcatid=540

The cage style is what I have. I've used it for my dogs when they were puppies, and for my adult dogs after they had surgery. You put a pad on the bottom, so it's comfortable for the dog, and you can put food and water and treats or toys in with the dog. The dog has enough room to get up and walk around and they are in pretty much the same sort of environment they would be in at the vet or the groomer. Most dogs can get used to this, particularly if it becomes part of a routine.