16
   

Was Allied bombing of Germany Jan - April 1945 a war crime?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2008 08:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
From USA Today:

Quote:
5 years after 'shock and awe,' a shallow debate on Iraq

Five years ago this week, as bombs began to rain down on Baghdad, this newspaper's front-page news story said President Bush's order "signaled the beginning of a preventive war unique in American history and one on which he has staked his presidency."

Subsequent events have shown the pre-emptive attack on Iraq to have been one of the great foreign policy blunders in American history, one that has driven Bush's approval rating down to 32%. Saddam Hussein, it turned out, had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks, possessed no weapons of mass destruction and posed no imminent threat to U.S. security.

While the U.S. deposed a brutal dictator, in the process it destabilized Iraq, emboldened its archenemy Iran and opened the door for al-Qaeda terrorists to establish a foothold in a place they hadn't been. Efforts to defeat the insurgency and salvage a semblance of stability in Iraq have cost nearly 4,000 American lives and more than $500 billion.

Despite gains from Bush's surge of more U.S. troops into Iraq last year, the next president is likely to inherit a precarious security situation and more than 100,000 U.S. troops on Iraqi soil. His, or her, challenge will be to extricate the United States from this debacle in a way that leverages the recent progress and preserves long-term U.S. interests in the region.

So far, however, none of the three candidates has a satisfactory plan to do that.
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 01:52 am

Bombing in Laos

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/03/laos-cluster-bombs-uxo-deaths

The scale of the contamination is mind-boggling. Laos was hit by an average of one B-52 bomb-load every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, between 1964 and 1973. US bombers dropped more ordnance on Laos in this period than was dropped during the whole of the second world war. Of the 260m "bombies" that rained down, particularly on Xieng Khouang province, 80m failed to explode, leaving a deadly legacy.

0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 03:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
"Absurdly inflated?" Sounds like your opinion when you don't provide credible source to support your statement(s).



I seldom post my opinion. I prefer to deal with facts. And the facts are merely the facts. No inflation is involved.

I also provide supporting links when I post something that isn't already widely known. (If I post that the sun rises every morning, I don't expect to have to provide a link to something so obvious.)

Is there some fact you would like me to provide a link to?
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 06:06 am
The fire bombings would assuredly be viewed by the entire world as war crimes today.

Nonetheless.... WW-II consisted of a contest between Germany and Russia to see who would dominate the Eurasian continent, a naval and air war between Germany and England, and a naval war between Japan and the U.S. to see who would rule the Pacific. The most critical part of the war was that between Germany and Russia. Contrary to what most Russians believe, there actually was a second front in that war beginning around 42 and that second front was in the air over Germany. The battle to protect Germany cities in fact was absorbing major fractions of Germany's war production and particularly the most advanced aircraft and the guns which were used to fill the skies with flak and all the ammunition they used, and if all that stuff had ever been freed for the Russian front, you can be quite certain that Russia would have lost WW-II and Adolf Hitler would have won it.

More recently in fact we have had an example of a use of air power which was vastly more difficult to defend. That was SlicKKK KKKlintler's 80-day air assault on Serbia to take Chinagate and the Juanita Broaddrick rape allegations off of the front pages of American newspapers. Russians were correct, for instance, in referring to the bombing of the petrochemical plant at Pancevo, which dumped hundreds of tons of toxic chemicals into the Danube river, as an act of international terrorism.






Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:32 am
@gungasnake,
Gunga Din wrote:
. . . and if all that stuff had ever been freed for the Russian front, you can be quite certain that Russia would have lost WW-II and Adolf Hitler would have won it.


Bullshit. As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:41 am
@Steve 41oo,
By the way, Boss, in support of your argument, you might want to take notice of what the United States Army Air Force did in Japan, apart from the atomic attacks. After Curtis LeMay took over Twentieth United States Army Air Force, he was eager to use the new B29 "Superfortresses" to the best effect, and the method he settled on was firebombing Japaneses cities. In early 1945, the USAAF firebombed more than 60 Japanese cities.

Robert McNamara, who was Curtis LeMay's ADC at that time, said the LeMay told him that if they were to lose the war, they would tried as war criminals.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:52 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Not really. It was not illegal for our soldiers to carry out precision strikes against military targets.


If the invasion itself is illegal (and it was), any attack which constitutes a portion of it is illegal. As usual, you speak ex cathedra, but you provide no support for your allegations.

It appears that you don't do sarcasm, and i suspect you haven't paid attention to the Iraqi death toll. Conservative estimates put it at 250,000 dead, and many estimate as many as a million. That hardly suggests either precision targeting, nor strictly military targets.

Quote:
No, we didn't do anything in Iraq that was even remotely like the UK's carpet bombing and firestorm in Dresden.


Straw man . . . i wasn't contending that we did anything like carpet bombing in Iraq, i was pointing out that the invasion, and any military actions which constituted a portion of it were illegal.

Quote:
While I have certainly been wrong before, it isn't very often.


My increasing experience is that you are frequently wrong, and that you offer personal opinion as though it were fact, and often state that it is fact. You reek of hubris with a remark such as this, but it is part and parcel of your habit of speaking as though from authority, speaking ex cathedra, when in fact, you almost never offer evidence for your opinion, but just offer it as though it were fact.

Quote:
I didn't say the US did no damage to the city. The US however, had nothing to do with the firestorm that the UK intentionally set there.


This is only true to the extent that we cobbled together our own little fire storm centered on the railway marshalling yards, as opposed to participating in the RAF firestorm.

Quote:
Are you under the impression that anything you quoted contradicts me in any way?


You are contradicted absolutely, it is not an impression. The mix of ordnance on February 14 is 40% incendiary. That is precisely the mix which the RAF customarily used to initiate fire storms. That ordnance mix was not either accidental or coincidental, and the evidence for it comes from the United States Army Air Force.

You're an arrogant s0b. You claim to rarely be wrong, and you speak as though your opinions were fact. You have no case.

In an earlier post, you wrote:

Quote:
Since any war crime at Dresden would be related that firestorm, I think it is fair to pin all the blame for any Dresden-related crimes solely on the UK.


One of the few occasions upon which i have seen you offer an opinion as a recognizable opinion, and not alleged to be fact. Your criterion, apparently, is starting a firestorm. That is precisely what the USAAF did with its ordnance mix on February 14. It was intentional.

However, we are not restricted to your narrow and self-serving view of what constitutes a war crime, the obvious intent of which is to whitewash the USAAF in the instance of the attack on Dresden. Bombing a refugee camp and indiscriminately strafing the roads in the environs of Dresden constitute criminal military activity as much as did starting a firestorm centered on the railway marshalling yards. In other USAAF documents, the city center was listed as "a target of opportunity," which is hardly surprising, given the location of the railway yards in the city center.

I have read that USAFHD document, but i don't see any reason to do all the legwork when you do none. Therefore, adopting your typical tone--it is a fact that the USAAF used 40% incendiary mix on the morning of February 14, it is a fact that the USAAF knowingly started a firestorm in the city center, it is a fact that 92nd Bomb Group also targeted a refugee assembly and housing center, it is a fact that Mustangs strafed roads around the city. If you want to dispute that, come up with some evidence. Your statements from authority are meaningless.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 11:11 am
Thanks for the map, Walter. It is important to point out, whenever possible, that Oralloy is passing his bullshit opinions off as facts--he's gotten a free ride on evidence too often in the past.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 12:45 pm
@Setanta,
Well, I've the advantage to have seen the results of Oralloy's "facts" with own eyes. The last time just just 30 hours ago.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 01:06 pm
@oralloy,
You agreed "torture was a crime," but how about your following statement?

Quote:
Re: cicerone imposter (Post 3496008)

You wrote:
Other than the war itself being a violation of the UN charter, Bush did not commit any crimes in the war against Iraq, and certainly did nothing like the UK's bombing of Dresden.


Please provide your "credible" links that "Bush did not commit any crimes in the war against Iraq."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 01:10 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Crimes against humanity:
Quote:
Final Verdict Released
Submitted by administrator on Wed, 2006-09-13 01:27.

Commission Finds President George W. Bush and His Administration Guilty of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

The Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration released its final verdict on Wednesday, September 13, 2006.

Find the full text of the verdict in PDF form here.


International War Crimes Tribunal:

Quote:
International War Crimes Tribunal
United States War Crimes Against Iraq
Initial Complaint

Charging
George Bush, J. Danforth Quayle, James Baker,
Richard Cheney, William Webster, Colin Powell,
Norman Schwarzkopf and Others to be named

With

Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes Against
Humanity and Other Criminal Acts and High Crimes in
Violation of the Charter of the United Nations,
International Law, the Constitution of the United States
and Laws made in Pursuance Thereof
.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:47 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
Not really. It was not illegal for our soldiers to carry out precision strikes against military targets.


If the invasion itself is illegal (and it was), any attack which constitutes a portion of it is illegal.


No it isn't.

Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello are two separate things.




Setanta wrote:
As usual, you speak ex cathedra, but you provide no support for your allegations.


Well, when I state something that is blindingly obvious and widely known, I tend not to post links.

The difference between Jus ad bellum and Jus in bello is described here:

http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/jus-ad-bellum.html

They are described in a bit more detail in part of this article:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/war/




Setanta wrote:
It appears that you don't do sarcasm, and i suspect you haven't paid attention to the Iraqi death toll. Conservative estimates put it at 250,000 dead, and many estimate as many as a million.


Maybe if we include disease, and the toll of Iraqis killing other Iraqis.

US soldiers certainly didn't kill anywhere near that many by firing on them.




Setanta wrote:
That hardly suggests either precision targeting, nor strictly military targets.


Well, if the figures include disease and Iraqis killing Iraqis, the figures are not applicable to the question of US targeting.

And if the figures claim that this many were killed by US weapons fire, the figures are bogus.




Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
No, we didn't do anything in Iraq that was even remotely like the UK's carpet bombing and firestorm in Dresden.


Straw man . . . i wasn't contending that we did anything like carpet bombing in Iraq,


Nope. You responded to my claim that we didn't do a Dresden-style carpetbombing, by saying that I was wrong.

If anything was a straw man, it was the incorrect claim that all parts of an illegal war are also illegal.



Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
While I have certainly been wrong before, it isn't very often.


My increasing experience is that you are frequently wrong,


I'll bet you can't cite many (if any) occurrences where I've actually been wrong.




Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
I didn't say the US did no damage to the city. The US however, had nothing to do with the firestorm that the UK intentionally set there.


This is only true to the extent that we cobbled together our own little fire storm centered on the railway marshalling yards, as opposed to participating in the RAF firestorm.


No firestorm was started by our bombing of Dresden.

I've never heard of the US starting a firestorm in any of the German cities we bombed, and I suspect that we did not, but I've never heard anyone conclusively establish that all the firestorms in Germany were started by the UK.



Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
Are you under the impression that anything you quoted contradicts me in any way?


You are contradicted absolutely, it is not an impression.


Wrong. What you quoted there agrees fully with my position.




Setanta wrote:
The mix of ordnance on February 14 is 40% incendiary. That is precisely the mix which the RAF customarily used to initiate fire storms. That ordnance mix was not either accidental or coincidental, and the evidence for it comes from the United States Army Air Force.


True. It doesn't change the fact that we were targeting the railyards and didn't cause a firestorm, but true nonetheless.




Setanta wrote:
"Oralloy" wrote:
Since any war crime at Dresden would be related that firestorm, I think it is fair to pin all the blame for any Dresden-related crimes solely on the UK.


One of the few occasions upon which i have seen you offer an opinion as a recognizable opinion, and not alleged to be fact. Your criterion, apparently, is starting a firestorm.


Well, it was the firestorm that killed the huge numbers of civilians.



Setanta wrote:
That is precisely what the USAAF did with its ordnance mix on February 14. It was intentional.


Nope. The US did not start any firestorm in our bombing of Dresden (and probably didn't start a firestorm in our bombing of Germany).




Setanta wrote:
However, we are not restricted to your narrow and self-serving view of what constitutes a war crime, the obvious intent of which is to whitewash the USAAF in the instance of the attack on Dresden. Bombing a refugee camp and indiscriminately strafing the roads in the environs of Dresden constitute criminal military activity


Not really. If we bombed a refugee camp, it was not intentional, and if we strafed the roads, it was to target the transport of goods (a legitimate target).

(Some German historians have actually made a decent case that we did not strafe the roads. But since we did tend to strafe transportation during the war, I tend to believe we did it.)



Setanta wrote:
I have read that USAFHD document, but i don't see any reason to do all the legwork when you do none.


If you'd like me to cite a document that supports my position, here you go:

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm




Setanta wrote:
Therefore, adopting your typical tone--it is a fact that the USAAF used 40% incendiary mix on the morning of February 14,


True.




Setanta wrote:
it is a fact that the USAAF knowingly started a firestorm in the city center,


Nope. The USAAF did not stat any firestorm in any part of Dresden, did not try to start a firestorm in any part of Dresden, and probably didn't start a firestorm anywhere in Germany.




Setanta wrote:
it is a fact that 92nd Bomb Group also targeted a refugee assembly and housing center,


Not intentionally they didn't.




Setanta wrote:
it is a fact that Mustangs strafed roads around the city.


There are some historians who beg to differ. But it's probably true.




Setanta wrote:
If you want to dispute that, come up with some evidence. Your statements from authority are meaningless.


If you'd like to read some documents that support my position, here you go:

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/dresden.html
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:50 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
It is important to point out, whenever possible, that Oralloy is passing his bullshit opinions off as facts--he's gotten a free ride on evidence too often in the past.


I'm sure there are more important things than slandering me.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:50 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, I've the advantage to have seen the results of Oralloy's "facts" with own eyes. The last time just just 30 hours ago.


The UK really did a lot of damage there, didn't they?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 08:55 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Well, when I state something that is blindingly obvious and widely known, I tend not to post links.


You post a single link to a distinction between the justice of making war and the justice in the making of war, and everything that follows in your post are once again a series of statements from authority, from an authority which no one here has any reason to assume you possess.

Your ex cathedra statements, unsupported by any evidence, are offered to attempt to suggest that the expression of your opinions constitutes statements of fact. I see no reason to continue to bandy words with someone who won't put his money where his mouth is. I have cited my sources, and am comfortable with the reliability of both the material i have linked and cited, and the conclusions to be reached from that material.

You can continue your pathetic attempt to whitewash the USAAF's actions with regard to Dresden. However, your credibility is zero when you don't provide substantiation for your remarks rather than a bald statement that this or that is a fact, or that this or that is "blindingly obvious."

All you do is demonstrate your unbridled arrogance and contempt for the others involved in this discussion. I have read the USAF and RAF documents you linked at the end of your post, and i don't see anything in those documents which supports your absolute claims about what the USAAF did or did not do. You are, as always, offering your opinion as though it were fact.
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 09:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You agreed "torture was a crime," but how about your following statement?

"Oralloy" wrote:
Other than the war itself being a violation of the UN charter, Bush did not commit any crimes in the war against Iraq, and certainly did nothing like the UK's bombing of Dresden.


Please provide your "credible" links that "Bush did not commit any crimes in the war against Iraq."


The evidence that he did not commit any such crimes is the absence of any credible claims that he did.

It's somewhat hard to "link the absence of any links", but here is a link that comprehensively describes the Iraq war, and doesn't include any Bush war crimes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War



(Just to keep the context in focus for people who didn't read earlier posts in the thread, I'm not disputing that Bush committed a crime in starting the war in Iraq.)
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 09:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
Crimes against humanity:
Quote:
Final Verdict Released
Submitted by administrator on Wed, 2006-09-13 01:27.

Commission Finds President George W. Bush and His Administration Guilty of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity

The Commission of Inquiry on Crimes Against Humanity Committed by the Bush Administration released its final verdict on Wednesday, September 13, 2006.

Find the full text of the verdict in PDF form here.


International War Crimes Tribunal:

Quote:
International War Crimes Tribunal
United States War Crimes Against Iraq
Initial Complaint

Charging
George Bush, J. Danforth Quayle, James Baker,
Richard Cheney, William Webster, Colin Powell,
Norman Schwarzkopf and Others to be named

With

Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes Against
Humanity and Other Criminal Acts and High Crimes in
Violation of the Charter of the United Nations,
International Law, the Constitution of the United States
and Laws made in Pursuance Thereof
.



That is a bogus tribunal. The anti-war fanatics like to form fake tribunals, make bogus convictions, and then run around saying that so and so was convicted of a war crime.

I have just as much authority to convict on war crimes as they do.

(And for the record, I've just convicted everyone on that fake tribunal of genocide. ) Cool
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:35 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy, It's obvious you are ignorant about the Geneva Convention which established standards of international law, and the United Nations to which all nations agree to the obligation set forth by the UN.

You are neither a legal entity with international powers or influence - you goddam pep-squeak. Get some education before you post your nonsense.
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Dec, 2008 10:54 pm
@Setanta,
The Russian/German war was very close for a long time and Roosevelt and Churchill were seriously concerned that Russia might throw the towel in.

Let Hitler take all of those 88mm guns and everything else shooting at B17s and put them on the Russian front along with all of the aircraft being used to defend against against B17s and Lancasters, and Hitler wins easily.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 02:19 am
@gungasnake,
You should re-read something about the war on the (German) east front.
 

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