25
   

Who won the debate? Obama or McCain?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
http://www.democracycorps.com/focus/2008/09/first-presidential-debate-obama-makes-important-personal-and-national-security-gains/

Quote:
Of our 45 initial undecided voters, a quarter moved to Obama and a quarter to McCain after the debate with the rest remaining undecided. Moreover, by a 38 to 27 percent margin these voters said that Obama won this debate.

A look at the underlying numbers shows that Obama made important gains that could endure through Election Day. These undecided voters had a strong positive reaction to Obama on a personal level. Before the debate, just 40 percent viewed Obama positively, but this skyrocketed to 69 percent after the debate - a remarkable 29-point gain that left him more personally popular than McCain despite this group's conservative leanings. He also made large strides on being seen as independent, from 44 percent to 65 percent. And in head-to-head matchups against McCain, Obama made significant gains on who "shares your values" and is "on your side."


McCain did not fair as well. His personal standing also improved, but not to nearly the same degree as Obama's. And while he made impressive gains on being a "maverick," he actually lost slight ground on "offering a different path than Bush," showing that these gains were more about style than substance.


I haven't seen any poll or focus group showing McCain winning the debate. While I don't think Obama won by any significant amount, I do think it is significant that pretty much every attempt to scientifically measure response to the debate has shown Obama to have done so.

I guess there's just a big difference, if you follow politics all the time, and if you don't. In my unscientific 'Cyclo's parents' poll, all respondents felt that it was a tie.

Cycloptichorn
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:06 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
In my unscientific 'Cyclo's parents' poll, all respondents felt that it was a tie.

Very Happy
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:19 pm
I didnt see the whole debate, let me start there.

But, based on what I saw last night and on the replay this morning, I woiuld say it was a draw.
Neither candidate really scored a knockout blow, it was more like a small dance.

Obama didnt help himself when he kept agreeing with McCain, and McCain didnt help himself by being patronizing to Obama.
I did notice however, one thing.
When both candidates were asked about how the $700 billion bailout would affect their plans, and what they would have to either cut or delay, neither candidate actually answered the question.
They danced around the question, tried to change the subject, and did everything possible to avoid answering.

Both candidates made mistakes or flat out lied about their opponents positions, so there was nothing new there.

So after watching most of the debate, I can honestly say that neither candidate impressed me or said anything new.
It was just a long commercial for both candidates.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:24 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Are you saying that Obama has NOT told any outright lies during the campaign?

I know you are partisan, but are you that partisan that you cant even acknowledge the truth?
And yes, I freely admit that McCain is also guilty of telling some lies.
Its part of being a politician.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:35 pm
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:

Winning the debate is a strange concept when the real goal is winning the election.


Whoever figures this out in time for the next debate will be in a very strong position
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:42 pm
@roger,
But both are tied together. You can't lose the debates by huge margins and hope to win the election, because the debates help those still on the fence - mostly independents.
Lambchop
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 01:59 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I think Obama did a good job, overall. I thought he did an excellent job of nailing McCain on economic policy and taxes.

On foreign policy, I wish Obama had hit McCain a little harder in some areas. I think McCain did a good job when it came to hammering home his image as "the more experienced guy."

But I still think Obama made some good points: We need to be focusing more on Afghanistan/Pakistan than Iraq; our involvement in Iraq has helped to strengthen Iran.

I also liked the fact that Obama made it clear that he will not hesitate to go after Pakistan if they fail to cooperate with us.

I hope everyone was paying attention to that. Some Democrats out there seem to have the impression that if a Democratic candidate wins, all the troops will be brought home, and we'll just forget about the middle east.

That's just not realistic, and none of the candidates (including Hillary Clinton) has ever said that we would completely withdraw our troops. Heck, John Kerry never said that either.

We need to have a military presence in the Middle East. The question is how much and where.
cicerone imposter
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 02:30 pm
@Lambchop,
Those impressions that Obama will bring home the troops home quickly will not go away, because the conservatives have done a good job of mis-representing what Obama has been saying. Even the issue of negotiating with our enemies were misrepresented by McCain, because McCain said we should not give our enemies legitimacy by talking to them, but all five past secretary of states said that we "should" talk to our enemies. We can't reset impressions already misrepresented, because most people do not bother to find out the truth. That's the real weakness of any debate or the run-up to the elections when most Americans remain ignorant of the truth.
Lambchop
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 02:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
That's very true, CI.

Still, I think Obama did a good job of letting everyone know he's not going to be the "wussy Liberal" president who's going to just sit back and let Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban perpetrate yet another 9/11 on us.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 04:28 pm
@Lambchop,
I expected more of an exciting debate than the one we got last night.

The format was set up somewhat informally, so that the candidates could directly address each other. Had either candidate made full use of that flexibility, I think it would have been much better.
Obama certainly did a better job of directing remarks at McCain than vice versa, and when Obama said three times, "You were wrong," that was the closest he got to landing a real oratorical punch. I wish he had done more of that sort of thing. Had he also thrown some direct questions at McCain, to put him on the spot, I think it would have been even better.
McCain's behavior and body language was abysmal. He acted as though Obama wasn't in the room. The not making eye contact and keeping his eyes downward made him seem tense and isolated, not confident enough to look his opponent in the eye, and not presidential in demeanor. His insulting tone and comments, as well as some smirking, just reinforced the overall impression of a somewhat meanspirited old man.

Just on the basis of personal style, Obama would seem to be the much better negotiator, and the one more likely to be able to bridge bipartisan divides. The fact that he kept agreeing with McCain, on those points that he could, indicates that he does try to seek some common ground with an opponent, which is a very good starting strategy when trying to resolve differences.

Obama was much more presidential and statesmanlike like than McCain. You could picture him calmly and objectively discussing issues with other world leaders and representing a positive, rational image of America to the international community. I cannot conjure up an image of McCain being able to do that--I can only see him as being somewhat arrogant and dismissive--as he was toward Obama last night--and I think that's the last type of attitude I want to see in our next president. We need to repair our image in the world, and in McCain I see too much swaggering, and we've had enough of that with Bush.

In terms of content, I really didn't hear much that was new from either man. I've heard them both state their positions before. McCain's recitation of his experience was not balanced with many new ideas. He's not about to shake up Washington, and his behavior has been so erractic, I wouldn't trust him to provide a steady hand on the wheel. Obama more than held his own on foreign affairs, in a strong and confident manner, and that was all I wanted from him last night.

I knew who I was voting for before I watched the debate last night. But, if I had never seen or heard either of these men before, I don't think I would have been left with a very favorable impression of McCain, at least on a personal level. He's been around, has lots of experience, and has good stamina and mental prowess for a man of his age, but I don't think I would be happy with the direction he'd take the country. I'm sick of hearing about "earmarks" because they are such an infinitesimally small part of our budgetary problems, and harping on whether the surge worked is less important to me than the fact we should have not invaded Iraq in the first place. For me, McCain fails to grasp the big picture.

I can't say Obama "won" last night, in the sense of blowing McCain off the stage. But he certainly behaved in a way that reinforces my intention to vote for him--with no hesitation about doing so.





cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 04:37 pm
@firefly,
As I heard a pundit say that Obama looks ahead, and McCain looks backwards. It's quite clear that McCain's message of change isn't really change, but a message to win the presidency. When he's voted 90% with Bush, what change does he want us to buy?
0 Replies
 
Lambchop
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 04:55 pm
@firefly,
You make some very good points, firefly.

Quote:
I'm sick of hearing about "earmarks" because they are such an infinitesimally small part of our budgetary problems, and harping on whether the surge worked is less important to me than the fact we should have not invaded Iraq in the first place. For me, McCain fails to grasp the big picture.


Very true. I thought McCain's response on the economic questions were very poor. It's so obvious that he wants to give the wealthy and the big corporations a "get out of paying taxes" free card. Did you see how he was dancing around the whole issue of taxes? Fred Astaire never danced that fast!

On foreign policy, I got so sick of McCain saying, "The surge was successful! It really was! Obama, don't you want to admit that the surge was successful?"

I so wanted for Obama to answer, "You want me to congratulate you on the surge? There was never any connection between Saddem Hussein and the Taliban. The Taliban never even appeared in Iraq until after we went there! There were no weapons of mass destruction. Because of us messing around in Iraq, Iran was able to grow stronger. And, in the process, we managed to tick off all of our foreign allies. BUT YOU WANT ME TO CONGRATULATE YOU ON THE FREAKING SURGE?" SHEESH!

Obama actually made all those points that I just mentioned, but I wish he had hit them a little stronger.




cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 05:25 pm
@Lambchop,
Obama actually responded to this when he said McCain will give the oil companies $4 billion dollars, but I'm sure this one flew over the conservative's heads.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 08:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
ci, McCain and Obama were not talking about presidential appointees and bureaucrats talking to the dictator of Iran, they were talking about the president talking to him. Kissinger has already dismissed Obama as being totally wrong. Obama was wrong, McCain had it exactly right. McCain in no way misrepresented it. It makes me wonder if you even watched the debate if you can't figure that issue out.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 08:36 pm
@okie,
okie, You missed one important video when all five former secretary of states agreed that diplomacy is needed with our enemies. That Kissinger would speak out after the debate and contradict himself is laughable at best.

Do you understand the meaning of "agenda and bias?"
okie
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 08:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Don't play dumb, ci. McCain has pointed out we have diplomatic contacts, not unusual, with almost everyone. That is quite different than the president sitting down with the dictator of Iran without preconditions. Admit it, Kissinger is totally consistent, McCain has been totally consistent, Obama is slick, but not slick enough to twist this one. You are plain wrong, ci, admit it.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:01 pm
@okie,
okie, I doubt very much you watched the debate last night or heard Obama speak about diplomacy with our enemies.

Friday, September 26, 2008
What Kissinger Really Said About Diplomacy with Iran

KISSINGER: Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic...
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,

June 2, 2008
Americans Favor President Meeting With U.S. Enemies
Six in 10 think it’s a good idea to meet with president of Iran

by Lydia Saad

PRINCETON, NJ -- Large majorities of Democrats and independents, and even about half of Republicans, believe the president of the United States should meet with the leaders of countries that are considered enemies of the United States. Overall, 67% of Americans say this kind of diplomacy is a good idea.
okie
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:06 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, I doubt very much you watched the debate last night or heard Obama speak about diplomacy with our enemies.

Friday, September 26, 2008
What Kissinger Really Said About Diplomacy with Iran

KISSINGER: Well, I am in favor of negotiating with Iran. And one utility of negotiation is to put before Iran our vision of a Middle East, of a stable Middle East, and our notion on nuclear proliferation at a high enough level so that they have to study it. And, therefore, I actually have preferred doing it at the secretary of state level so that we -- we know we're dealing with authentic...

ci, knock it off, admit you are wrong. Secretary of State is not president. If you can't admit this one, my respect for you will go down a few notches. This one is clear. And public opinion is not part of the debate here, so it is not even pertinent to this discussion. Come on, have some honor, you know what this is. if you don't, I am going to totally give up on you altogether.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
And this from May 2008:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/us/politics/29obama.html?_r=1&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin
 

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