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Who won the debate? Obama or McCain?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:50 am
@sozobe,
I love Fact check and Politifacts. SO dispassionate, so FACT oriented. Takes the work out of keeping up.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:52 am
@farmerman,
farmerman, Some of the pundits saw what you saw, but as McCain tried to be condescending towards Obama, his votes by Independents went lower. He used that phrase often to remind the audience that Obama doesn't have the experience, and was directed by his handlers to repeat that phrase.

IMHO, if McCain didn't use that phrase, he would have scored more points. The audience did not care for negativity from either side; they wanted to hear the solutions for our current problems.

As for distortions, Obama also spoke them when he said 95% would get a tax cut.

I also agree that the American voters are pretty dumb; many still believe Palin is the best thing since the invention of bread.
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:59 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
As for distortions, Obama also spoke them when he said 95% would get a tax cut.


As distortions go, that was pretty minor. He said "people" when he meant "families" -- 95% of families will get a tax cut under his plan. With the word "people" instead it's 81.3% -- still not a huge difference. (As opposed to McCain saying that earmarks have tripled in the last five years when they've actually gone down by about 25%, for example.)
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:04 am
@sozobe,
soz, I agree that during this whole campaign, McCain's lies out-distance Obama by millions of miles. McCain outright lies, whereas Obama's are just somewhat a stretch of what he's said before. The problem with the Obama's stretch is that people will attack it for its inconsistencies, because nobody understands that both statements are fundamentally true.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:09 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Several polls and analyses have McCain "winning" the thing...

But the main thing McCain had to do was not win, but convince voters that at 70 years of age, he still has it together and is not fogeyed-out. He appeared to have done that.


Funny, most of the polls I saw - in fact, all of them - had Obama winning amongst Independents and undecided voters. I didn't see a single one showing a McCain win.

I think it was a strong performance by both, boring in ways, but a good introduction. This was supposed to be McCain's strongest debate - foreign policy - and he DID do better on that part. But overall I do believe that Obama won by a hair, as his body language was far better.

The TV anchors have been going on and on about body language all night and today, and while we know that those guys have no real special analysis ability, joe sixpack, not so much. The Friday night nature of the debate means that just as many people will likely see the analysis as saw the debate itself...

Cycloptichorn
dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:13 am
i see it basically as Obama 51
mccain 49
I don't pretend objectivity
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:13 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The important real issue of this debate was the ability of the electorate to see both at the same venue presenting their positions on the economy and foreign affairs.

McCain never looked at Obama during the whole event; just before and right after, but not during. Maybe some psychiatrist can tell us what this really means.
boomerang
 
  4  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:33 am
I'll join the others in thinking it was too close to call.

Sure, McCain didn't look at Obama but Obama called him "Jim" at least twice that I caught so that's a draw on that stuff too.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:35 am
@boomerang,
Yeah, I noticed that too, and cringed. LOL
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:36 am
@cicerone imposter,
I noticed his eyes darting around, that was weird to me.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:38 am
@littlek,
Not only that, but McCain never looked directly at the camera while Obama did most of the time - as if he was speaking to everybody.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:41 am
I have to admit, I watched about 15 minutes and flipped to the Brewers/Cubs game. But what I saw seemed to be a game on McCain's part of making numerical claims that Obama wouldn't be able to challenge on the spot without having the information at hand.

Just a thought.

Also seemed to me that both were playing down to a presumedly vapid audience, which played a large part in me flipping away. I find the political game playing profoundly distasteful.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:55 am
@boomerang,
Neither of them was spectacularly good or bad. I'd hoped for a bit of a break-out for Mr. Obama.

I was surprised that Mr. McCain looked as good, physically, as he did next to Mr. Obama. I guess some of the hype about the "little old man" had got to me. So that's one up for Mr. McCain from me. Not exactly a voting point, but it's pointing out to me that I really need to be reading and watching things more critically myself.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:04 am
@sozobe,
Quote:
Blitzer said. "We would have loved to interview -- we'd still love to interview Sarah Palin. Unfortunately we asked, we didn't get that interview.... We're hoping that Sarah Palin will join us at some point down the road."


The McCain gang over-tightened the nuts on the training wheels and they are having a devil of a time getting them off.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:10 am
Quote:

Grading the First Presidential Debate

John McCain

Substance: His arguments were hard to follow at the beginning, but he found his voice as the debate progressed, although he never seemed fully in control of his message. He had plenty to say about the economy, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Russia, but often bogged down his own answers when trying to unfurl quips and soundbites. Stuck with bumper sticker slogans on the economy, and while he got a bit more detailed on foreign policy, he stayed at his usual level of abstraction. If he truly knows more about the world than Obama, he didn't show it in this debate.

Grade: B-

Style: Cluttered, jumpy, and often muddled. Frequent coughing early on helped neither his arguments nor his image. Jokes about being deaf and anecdotes about Normandy and George Shultz seemed ill-advised - even his pen was old. His presentation was further hindered by his wandering discussion of the differing heights of North and South Koreans and his angry assertion about how well he knows Henry Kissinger. Fell into the classic politician's trap of inserting familiar stump speech applause lines into debate responses - which only works if done with enthusiasm and clarity (and if received by applause - a big No-No in Lehrer's auditorium, which the audience obeyed seriously and silently). Keenly aware of the grand, grave occasion, McCain wavered between respectful and domineering, and ended up awkward and edgy.

Grade: C-

Offense: Emphasized his bread and butter issues of taxes and spending, and hit Obama on his failure to visit Iraq and his expressed willingness to meet with dictators. But while mocking his opponent on a few occasions, which reflected his acute disrespect for Obama, he did so in an insufficiently sharp and detailed manner - and unevenly worked elements of his rival's record into his attacks. Still he was utterly confident about his own experience, knowledge, and policies, even when tripped by his own tongue and distracted by the strains of debate practice. The main problem: Obama's obvious preparation and sharp answers contradicted McCain's frequent claims that the Democrat was uninformed and "didn't understand" key issues.

Grade: C+

Defense: He managed to ignore most of Obama's jibes, but was eventually baited into giving an extended answer about his policy differences with President Bush, after his opponent repeatedly mentioned McCain's regular support of Bush's budgets. Was visibly riled when clashing with Obama over a variety of issues, including Iraq, sanctions, and spending. He also chose to boast about Sarah Palin (although not by name) as his maverick partner, who, after her shaky week, may no longer be his ace in the hole.

Grade: B-

Overall: McCain was McCain - evocative, intense, and at times emotional, but also vague, elliptical, and atonal. Failed to deliver his "country first versus Obama first" message cleanly, even when offered several opportunities. Surprisingly, did not talk much about "change," virtually ceding the dominant issue of the race.

Overall grade: B-
(Read Mark Halperin's take on Barack Obama's performance)

Barack Obama

Substance: Quite manifestly immersed in the past, present, and future details of policy, and eager to express his views, which have been expanded, honed, and solidified during the last 18 months of hard campaigning. Still, he did avoid the nitty-gritty details of policy positions in favor of broad principles and references to working Americans, thereby not presenting the kind of specifics that some voters are waiting to hear from him.

Grade: B+

Style: Polished, confident, focused. Fully prepared, and able to convey a real depth of knowledge on nearly every issue. He was unhurried, and rarely lost his train of thought even when the debate wended and winded - and uttered far fewer of his trademark, distracting, "ums." At times, however, Obama revealed the level of his preparation by faltering over a rehearsed answer. He seemed to deliberately focus on the moderator and the home audience, with McCain as an afterthought - except when on the attack. Chose to avoid humor, for the most part, in favor of a stern demeanor, and in the process, came off as cool as a cucumber.

Grade: A

Offense: Linking McCain to Bush in his very first answer, he kept it up as his primary line of attack. Forcefully hit McCain for his early support of the Iraq War. Though he never drew blood, he did keep McCain a bit off balance, often with clever references to McCain's recent statements.

Grade: B

Defense: Had a reasonable answer for every charge that came his way - with little anger, bluster, or anxiety. Often interrupting McCain attacks with swift explanations and comebacks, he managed to spin accusations of being liberal as evidence of his relentless opposition to George Bush (in replies that were clearly planned). Offered a rather clumsy alternative to McCain's well-known, moving story of wearing the bracelet of a soldier lost in Iraq (a gift from the soldier's mother), with a story about a bracelet of his own. Fearless, without condescension, he attempted the gracious move of agreeing with or complimenting a McCain position, occasionally to his own detriment.

Grade: A-

Overall: Went for a solid, consistent performance to introduce himself to the country. He did not seem nervous, tentative, or intimidated by the event, and avoided mistakes from his weak debate performances during nomination season (a professorial tone and long winded answers). Standing comfortably on the stage with his rival, he showed he belonged - evocative of Reagan, circa 1980. He was so confident by the end that he reminded his biggest audience yet that his father was from Kenya. Two more performances like that and he will be very tough to beat on Election Day.

Overall grade: A-


http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/gradingthefirstpresidentialdebate








0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:16 am
On a personal level, I think Obama won the debate with flying colors.
He's a decent, honest man and it shows in his rhetoric, as he seems to have
a hard time to play his opponent with lies and innuendos as McCain does.

McCain in essence hasn't said much except polemics, and with that in mind
I have to say: anyone who believes in a McCain/Palin ticket is insulting
the ones whose IQ is above 50
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:23 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

I'll join the others in thinking it was too close to call.

Sure, McCain didn't look at Obama but Obama called him "Jim" at least twice that I caught so that's a draw on that stuff too.


Called him "Tom" once to.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:26 am
@Cycloptichorn,
So, you'd call it for Obama based on style and body language? I'm hoping for more in our next president.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:31 am
@roger,
You'll get more with Obama. He also answered the questions in detail more than McCain did according to most posts analysis of the debate.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:33 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

So, you'd call it for Obama based on style and body language? I'm hoping for more in our next president.


Well, I think both of them gave roughly the same performance when it comes to facts and plans for the future. McCain did better than I thought he would, actually, and I don't want to take anything away from his performance.

The funny thing is, a lot of times the body language and style stick with people far more then what was said. Think about the Gore-Bush debate; they still talk about Gore walking across the stage. Or Bush checking his watch that one time. Or Nixon-Kennedy. Appearances and style and body language matter as much as what is said, that's just the way of things.

A good first round for both teams.

Cycloptichorn
 

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