6
   

Palin vs Hillary

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 04:37 pm
@A Lone Voice,
I think the real issue is that Palin is but a heartbeat away from taking over the country. That's the scary part.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 04:37 pm
@A Lone Voice,
A Lone Voice wrote:
Can any of you really, honestly say Hillary was elected to her senate seat without the name recognition provided to her by her husband?

Or maybe she put her own career on hold for a while so that her husband could be President. That's they way a marriage works; people sacrifice for each other.

Neither Bill nor Hillary are lightweights. Ambitious? Sure. Any politician is. But also smart and determined.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 04:41 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:

Most of the folks I know are discussing her merits without reference to her gender, so you're kinda off the rails here at the very beginning.




Quote:

So, added to Palin's flimsy experience for the job of VP (considerably less than Geraldine Ferraro had when she ran for VP), her questionable record while in public office, and the ambivalent feelings she arrouses in many working women who see her as neglecting the needs of her own minor children (and, in that senses, not a good role model), her extreme views on social issues and her religious bias really turn many people off, particularly those who are socially liberal.

A lot of Palin's appeal seems based on her rather natural personality and her physical attractiveness, rather than more substantive attributes of intellect or ideas.

Clinton is presidential material. Next to her, Palin looks and sounds like a "hockey mom" who is still running for president of the PTA.


Sarah Palin's inclusion on the Republican ticket as VP seems like affirmative action at it's worst, given her skimpy resume and scant experience for the job.



Really, DD?

And the sad thing is, most posters here at A2K - while they are rather lib/progressive - are rather fair. You should see what they're saying at the DU and kos and some of the other far left sites.

Of couse, the national media hasn't been too fair, either. But I'll agree the McCain camp has made a major mistake keeping her under wraps.

Unless they were afraid that every journalist in America, looking for that 'gotcha' moment, would ask silly, factless questions about her pretending to be the mother of her daughter's son, posing in a bikini holding a rifle, or a list of banned books from a public library...
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 04:44 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Quote:
Quote:
Sarah Palin's inclusion on the Republican ticket as VP seems like affirmative action at it's worst, given her skimpy resume and scant experience for the job.


Is this reverse discrimination? LOL
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:00 pm
@ebrown p,
Great question, but you ignored my question in making your comment.

First off, don't assume I'm supporting Palin "so mindlessly." What I have done is ask if any of you can really, honestly say Hillary was elected to her senate seat without the name recognition provided to her by her husband? I guess this is why I'm puzzled by lib/progressive women claiming her as their champion. There are women politicians in this country who didn't need their husbands or dads to give them the boost up to start their political careers.

This was the comparision I was making to Palin, who was elected as Gov. of Alaska on her own.

Now, Palin vs. Geraldine.

Probably a more accurate comparision of two women politicians, although I find it distasteful to make such comparisions. I'm past gender, as are most people I know. Many are not, I guess.

As I recall, Mondale was such a long shot, he was looking for any gimmick to call attention to his campaign (sounds familiar? Except it has worked for McCain). Reagan was the popular incumbant, and as I recall he swept every state except Mondale's MN and maybe one one other far left state (Mass, maybe?)

What I do recall, however, is how the NY Times and other liberal media went nuts over Mondale's VP, calling her a great choice.

And how they said experience (she only had a couple years in the House) didn't matter. This was just the liberal press then, much like repubs are saying now.





cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:05 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Name recognition alone will never win an election except in fascist countries.
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Actually, I was quoting another person here for DD's benefit.

Hey, re your earlier post... Believe it or not, we might actually agree on a few things. Kinda confused on your small government/universal health care tho; not sure how that would work. Don't want to get sidetracked here, but is there another thread where you 'splain all?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:13 pm
@A Lone Voice,
I've been pretty consistent about "small government/universal health care" meme for most of my Abuzz and a2k life. The meaning is in its simplest form as written.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Not alone, but it will get the dem or repub machine behind you. Much as when an incumbant dies in office, and a spouse is appointed to finish out the term.

Isn't that comparable?

Without the name - and the connection - it's not going to happen.

How about this? Would George Bush have been elected Gov of Texas without Dad? Without TX, would he have run for president?

Oooh, I'm getting goose bumps, it's so much alike...

Maybe I should have done a George vs Hillary thing. That would have tightened everyone's jaws...

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:17 pm
@A Lone Voice,
Not comparable; any congressman/woman replaced by a spouse is still under the influence of the total congress, and his/her decisions doesn't impact Americans the way a president does.

As a matter of fact, we had several from California where the spouse took over in congress for their spouse.
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 12:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I know. I recall Mrs. Cher Wink and a few others.
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 08:16 pm
@A Lone Voice,
ALV, you are continuing to discount Clinton's career and accomplishments before she ever became First Lady, as well as the things she did while her husband was president---she had a career and name recognition and a reputation in her own right.
I think you are being quite sexist in viewing Hillary as being only "Bill's wife" when she first ran for the Senate. She has worked, quite successfully, her entire adult life, and she was always highly regarded in her own right.

And you are grossly underestimating the problems she had as a "carpetbagger" when she first ran for the Senate. New York was never her base. She was an outsider to voters, who did not believe she could understand the problems of NY or properly represent them, and she was an outsider in local NY Democratic politics. People resented her taking up residency in NY just so she could run for the Senate. Robert Kennedy had also met with similar initial resistance when he did the same thing. Hillary had to campaign tirelessly--particularly in Republican areas of the state--and convince people to vote for her. And she won that first election for the Senate with 55% of the vote compared to 43% for her opponent--a decisive victory.

Were Laura Bush to go home to Texas and then get nominated and then get elected to the Senate, I'd be inclined to agree that her husband's name and influence had a lot to do with it, as well as her name recognition as First Lady. Although, in reality, George Bush couldn't help anyone get elected right now.Laughing
But that would be an example of a woman having doors open for her mainly based on her association with her husband. She wouldn't really be a "self made" political power.

But Hillary Clinton had a lengthy resume of her own before she got into the White House, and she simply added to it during her stint as First Lady--she just hadn't held elective office.

Hillary is much closer to a woman like Elizabeth Dole than she is to Palin. Both Clinton and Dole are very accomplished women whose husbands also happened to be in political life, but the women pursued their own separate careers. Had McCain picked someone like Dole as his running mate, you wouldn't hear a lot of squawking from disappointed Hillary supporters--they would feel that Dole had earned her spot on the ticket.

The problem with Palin is that she's just not qualified for the job, and did not merit the nomination.





A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 09:27 pm
@firefly,
And I think you're refusing to admit Hillary would never have gained her senate seat if hadn't been Mrs. Clinton.

Did she work hard, does she have political skills, etc? Sure. So do many other women across the US. But why can't you admit it was her role as First Lady that allowed her to gain the senate?

I'll be the first to admit she gained her second term on merit, or what NY voters considered to be a good candidate to reelect.

But she didn't earn her first term on her own chops. Which is why I can't understand why she is a champion to lib/progressive women, when so many women politicians have earned it without a husband's or dad's help...
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 01:30 am
@A Lone Voice,
ALV--have you studied the actual dynamics of Clinton's first Senate race, and analyzed the voting patterns, or any actual data at all, to confirm one iota of your hypothesis, that she was elected only because of her husband?

You asked why Clinton is so popular with liberal women. I am a liberal woman, who obviously is a strong supporter of Clinton. I tell you why I support Clinton, but would not support Palin, even though I see both as "self made women", but you discount what I am saying.

Not only don't you listen to what I am saying, you persist in trying to define Clinton as not a "self made woman". That you cannot understand that Clinton was quite successful, and appreciated as a person in her own right, for decades before she became First Lady, and well before she became a Senator, simply reveals a strong bias you seem to have against her.

As I said in my earlier post, I feel your thinking on this matter is quite sexist. Even the whole idea of seeing some women as being "self made" seems sexist. I don't know that women even tend to judge each other in such terms. It would not occur to me to think about another woman as being "self-made" or "not self made".

Is Cindy McCain a "self-made" woman? Well, I guess not, in terms of her daddy's money and her politically connected husband. Does that mean that one should view her philanthrophy as less worth while because it's her father's wealth that affords her the time and financial means to pursue her charitable activities? I think not. I do admire the work Mrs McCain does.

But, by your definition, John McCain is not a self-made man. His political career was started by his wife's money, and her connections.

Quote:
Her father's business and political contacts helped gain her husband a foothold into Arizona politics. She campaigned with her husband door-to-door during his successful first bid for U.S. Congress in 1982, and was heavily involved in campaign strategy. Her wealth from an expired trust from her parents provided significant loans to the campaign and helped it survive a period of early debt.


Perhaps that's why Palin generates more excitement than McCain--she's self made, he is not.Laughing

You will never understand why liberal women, or non-liberal women, support Hillary Clinton so strongly, unless you listen to them, and hear their reasons, and I've certainly given you mine. If you don't want to hear our answers, don't bother asking the question.

The fact that Hillary Clinton is also a vocal advocate of womens' rights on the international stage, and has been for a long time, also may explain why women all over the world admire her. She does speak out for women, and all women can champion her for that.

I can admire Palin for the success she has had in her political career. That doesn't mean she is someone I can get really excited about in terms of her views on things. It certainly doesn't mean I think she is qualified to be VP of the U.S.. And if she isn't qualified to hold the position of VP, I am not happy to see her nominated for it. The fact she is a woman has nothing to do with it. I don't want unqualified people of either gender running for the top jobs in our land.

And Palin is on the ticket only thanks to her selection by an elderly male benefactor. Shucks...there goes her status as a self-made woman. Laughing

sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 05:25 am
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
But, by your definition, John McCain is not a self-made man. His political career was started by his wife's money, and her connections.


Very nice point, firefly.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 08:31 am
Conservative at the NRO gives up on Palin

Kathleen Parker wrote:

...
As we’ve seen and heard more from John McCain’s running mate, it is increasingly clear that Palin is a problem. Quick study or not, she doesn’t know enough about economics and foreign policy to make Americans comfortable with a President Palin should conditions warrant her promotion.

Yes, she recently met and turned several heads of state as the United Nations General Assembly convened in New York. She was gracious, charming and disarming. Men swooned. Pakistan’s president wanted to hug her. (Perhaps Osama bin Laden is dying to meet her?)

And, yes, she has common sense, something we value. And she’s had executive experience as a mayor and a governor, though of relatively small constituencies (about 6,000 and 680,000, respectively).

Finally, Palin’s narrative is fun, inspiring and all-American in that frontier way we seem to admire. When Palin first emerged as John McCain’s running mate, I confess I was delighted. She was the antithesis and nemesis of the hirsute, Birkenstock-wearing sisterhood " a refreshing feminist of a different order who personified the modern successful working mother.

Palin didn’t make a mess cracking the glass ceiling. She simply glided through it.

It was fun while it lasted.

Palin’s recent interviews with Charles Gibson, Sean Hannity, and now Katie Couric have all revealed an attractive, earnest, confident candidate. Who Is Clearly Out Of Her League.

No one hates saying that more than I do. Like so many women, I’ve been pulling for Palin, wishing her the best, hoping she will perform brilliantly. I’ve also noticed that I watch her interviews with the held breath of an anxious parent, my finger poised over the mute button in case it gets too painful. Unfortunately, it often does. My cringe reflex is exhausted.
...
FreeDuck
 
  4  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 09:00 am
@engineer,
Very well said.

I'm late to this party, but here goes. I didn't support Hillary in the primaries. I agree that she would not have been elected to her senate seat had she not been First Lady. However, if she were not married to Bill I think she would have built her own career and once in the Senate she was no lightweight. All politicians get where they are because of connections. There is just no comparison between Gov. Palin and Sen. Clinton. Clinton has been on the national stage for a long time, is well versed in foreign, domestic, and economic policy, has ideas, and has cared about national issues for decades. Palin, on the other hand, has shown no interest in national politics whatsoever and is clearly in over her head. That's not to say that she never would, but clearly she's not ready at this point in time. She has many good qualities, and her rise up from the very lowest levels of politics is admirable. But she hasn't even finished her second year as governor of a small state. She can hardly pull off a one-on-one interview without sounding like a stumped college student -- how on earth will she survive a debate with Biden? She has much to learn and has not shown that she even cares about national issues. Further, I would add that the boost Hillary gets from Bill is not much more than the boost Palin gets from her looks. Her career path is littered with the political corpses of old men who were charmed, I'm sure.

The sad thing is that if they had not plucked her from her job and set her on the national stage now, she might have been a credible Republican female presidential candidate 8 years from now. You guys have ruined her.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 11:10 am
@FreeDuck,
Yup, we don't need a president in training who has no clue about domestic or foreign affairs running our country.
0 Replies
 
A Lone Voice
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 11:37 am
@firefly,
Quote:

But, by your definition, John McCain is not a self-made man. His political career was started by his wife's money, and her connections.


Actually, I believe his political career was founded on his POW status.

The dems have been calling attention (rightly so, I believe) to his start in the Navy, i.e. how he even was able to gain admittance to the Naval Academy on the backs of his father and grandfather. This should be fair game.

I try to stay intellectually honest is these discussions.

Please, don't throw out the sexist card. I'm simply proposing Hillary would not have been elected in NY if her last name had not been Clinton. I think you’re letting your admiration of an individual fog your good sense.

I'm not denying her political savvy, her campaigning ability, all the things she was able to do to get elected (although, as I recall, she had a mediocre repub opponent as Giuliani did not run as expected).

But without a hook, like McCain being a POW, or Hillary being First Lady, why do you think these politicians would have gained the backing of their parties in the first place? And then gone on to win an election?

Again, use Bush as an example. Without dad as pres, would he have had the political career he had? Frankly, I don’t think so. The guy can’t put two sentences together and isn’t the best campaigner. But he did have the name recognition.

And again, let's drop ideology, folks, and try to be honest here...
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 26 Sep, 2008 11:38 am
@A Lone Voice,
McCain was a POW?
 

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