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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Fox, your position only makes sense if people somehow forgot the 1990's, a time when we enjoyed the sort of taxation Obama is proposing, and yet somehow, we made much more money and had a balanced budget.

He's not raising 'enormous taxes.' He's returning many of them to the way they were 8 years ago. He's raising taxes on folks who won't even blink when they have to pay them.

And, as has been pointed out, BOTH candidates want the death tax back; I'm afraid I really can't trust the conclusions of that article, as they don't seem all that accurate.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Fox, your position only makes sense if people somehow forgot the 1990's, a time when we enjoyed the sort of taxation Obama is proposing, and yet somehow, we made much more money and had a balanced budget.

He's not raising 'enormous taxes.' He's returning many of them to the way they were 8 years ago. He's raising taxes on folks who won't even blink when they have to pay them.

And, as has been pointed out, BOTH candidates want the death tax back; I'm afraid I really can't trust the conclusions of that article, as they don't seem all that accurate.

Cycloptichorn


Fine. Post your credible source rebutting it then.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 10:57 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

That's cool. I would probably put confidence in competence of a Forbes analysis way ahead of the Tax Policy Center,

Why?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 11:13 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

That's cool. I would probably put confidence in competence of a Forbes analysis way ahead of the Tax Policy Center,

Why?


Don't get me wrong. I don't have any major problem with the TPC or its parent organizations. But it does seem to draw on the Urban Institute for its tax analysis and that organization is headed by a whole covey of somewhat leftwing think tankers who I don't especially trust to be entirely unbiased in their analysis. Also other credible sources such as Forbes, Cato, Heritage et al often disagree with their analysis though they also sometimes agree.

The Urban Institute by the way isn't enamored with either Obama or McCain's economic policies at this time.

But at this point I'm not pushing Forbes as the real deal nor am I disputing the TPC's take on it. I do think we will be better informed if we look at what all of them are saying though.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 12:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
There are some problems with the comparison from Forbes Fox.

They compare the AVERAGE tax rate for EU to the HIGHEST rate for the US.
A proper comparison would be the actual taxes paid in both places.

The EU doesn't allow the same tax write offs as the US does so the comparison of rates is misleading and probably intentionally so unless you want to believe that Forbes doesn't know how to compare effective tax rates.
Quote:
However, the U.S also has the greatest number of corporate tax loopholes of any OECD member,[28] allowing many corporations to achieve a lower effective tax rate than the published rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_the_United_States

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 12:27 pm
I think a lot of us on both sides of the aisle can appreciate this cartoon Smile

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sst090508dBP.jpg
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 12:29 pm
@parados,
I'm not sure where all that is in that huge Wikipedia article, Parados, and I am not inclined to read it all to decipher the information.

But how do you think that affects Obama or McCain's proposed economic policies?

Meanwhile I chuckled at this one too:

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb0905wj.jpg
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 01:55 pm
Here's Obama today, on McCain's attempt to jack his 'change' message.

Quote:
Everywhere I go we've been talking about change, that's been the theme of the campaign. And we must be on to something, because I notice now everyone's talking about change now.

John McCain has said that change is coming!

Now think about this coming from the party that's been in charge for 8 years, they've been running the show! Been up in the White House, John McCain brags, '90% of the time I have voted with George Bush. He and I we we're right there' and suddenly he's the change agent!

He says I'm going to tell those lobbyists that their days in Washington are over. Who's he gonna tell? Is he gonna tell his campaign chairman who's one of the biggest corporate lobbyists in Washington? Is he going to tell all the folks who are running his campaign who are the biggest corporate lobbyist in Washington? Who is it that he's going to tell that change is coming?

I mean come on! They must think you're stupid!

I mean, maybe what they're saying is 'watch out George Bush' you know except for economic policies, and tax policies, and energy policies, and health care policies, and education policies, and Karl Rove style of politics " except for all that, we're really going to bring change to Washington! We're gonna shake things up! What are these guys talking about? Do you think we haven’t been paying attention over the past 8 years?


(Obama then went point by point through education, tax policy, energy policy and health care telling voters why McCain’s version of change is not change like the kind he will bring.)

I know the governor of Alaska has been, you know, saying she is change. And that is great. She is a skillful politician. But when you been taking all these earmarks when it is convenient and then suddenly you are the champion anti-earmark person. That is not change, come on. I mean, words mean something. You can't just make stuff up. You can’t just make stuff up. We have a choice to make and the choice is clear.

Don't be fooled. These are the folks who have been in charge. John McCain's party, with the help of John McCain, has been in charge.


You guys really do think people are stupid, don't you?

I still haven't heard anyone outline how McSame will be significantly different then Bush in the Executive branch. Only railing against Congress.

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 01:58 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
McSame


Only the ignorant use that term...
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:04 pm
@H2O MAN,
I have no votes nor i wish to have one.
But as a critical observer of your country's election I wish- yes I wish strongly- to wipe out republicans and show the doors for 20 years if not more.
They had shattered the normal image of USA.
the quick fix is Obama.
But be sure he cannot change anything.
Your SYSTEM is corrupt, corporate-controlled.
Hitler was not responsible but the people who had waved Hitler's flag.
German people knows that and repent.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:09 pm
@H2O MAN,
Well that may be all he has. Earlier today I outlined the differences between McCain and Obama's economic policies and how McCain's would be different from what we have now, but I guess that wasn't as pertinent as parroting the Democrat talking points.

I am encouraged though at finding out more and more how little of Obama's policies many if not most of his supporters actually even know, much less understand. And I'm banking on the majority of voters in November to have done their homework. If they do, I believe McCain will win.

Now you watch, some numbnut will show up and throw out more ad hominem leftwing malarky. Wanna make a bet on that?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, The conservative's brain has already been calcified for eight years; don't expect any change in the support of McCain/Palin. The "only" change is that McCain picked a woman without any national or international experience; a Alaskan beauty queen of sorts with a mouth that hasn't told much truth.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:14 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Earlier today I outlined the differences between McCain and Obama's economic policies and how McCain's would be different from what we have now


Actually, you didn't do that. There wasn't much attention paid to highlighting the differences between Bush's policies and McCain's policies. If anything, you showed that they are the same in almost every respect. The most you can say is that McCain is more Conservative then Bush, but isn't a 'change,' that's more of the same that Bush has been doing - much more, and much worse.

Cycloptichorn
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:15 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Republicans are men of narrow vision,
who are afraid of the future.
Jimmy Carter
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:16 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Earlier today I outlined the differences between McCain and Obama's economic policies and how McCain's would be different from what we have now


Actually, you didn't do that. There wasn't much attention paid to highlighting the differences between Bush's policies and McCain's policies. If anything, you showed that they are the same in almost every respect. The most you can say is that McCain is more Conservative then Bush, but isn't a 'change,' that's more of the same that Bush has been doing - much more, and much worse.

Cycloptichorn


I beg to differ. I outlined quite a few initiatives proposed by McCain that are quite different from what we have today. And I also challenged to dispute those statements with any credible source of your own. I presume you couldn't find one?
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:25 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Earlier today I outlined the differences between McCain and Obama's economic policies and how McCain's would be different from what we have now


Actually, you didn't do that. There wasn't much attention paid to highlighting the differences between Bush's policies and McCain's policies. If anything, you showed that they are the same in almost every respect. The most you can say is that McCain is more Conservative then Bush, but isn't a 'change,' that's more of the same that Bush has been doing - much more, and much worse.

Cycloptichorn


I beg to differ. I outlined quite a few initiatives proposed by McCain that are quite different from what we have today. And I also challenged to dispute those statements with any credible source of your own. I presume you couldn't find one?


Let's look at what you actually wrote:

Quote:


McCain proposes to slash federal corporate tax rate to 25% along with expensing for capital investment (allowing capital costs to be deducted in the year they are incurred.)

McCain proposes to make current tax rates permanent: Top individual income-tax rate 35%; capital gains and dividends rates 15% and eliminate repetitive death tax. In addition he proposes to double the personal exemption for children and other dependents from $3,500 to $7,000.

McCain proposes to abolish the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT), which was originally adopted as a mechanism to ensure that a small number of the richest Americans pay at least some tax. Because it was never indexed for inflation, today it imposes sharp, surprise tax increases on the middle class in the highest-tax states.

McCain also pledges to ban taxes on the Internet and on cell phones, consistent with his longstanding record.


Those are all Bush positions. They aren't the way things all ARE right now, but that's b/c Congress has not passed everything Bush WANTS to pass. He's been trying to get the tax cuts made permanent for years. Bush has been trying to get the corporate tax rate lowered for years. He has campaigned to abolish the AMT.

You aren't showing how McCain is different then the current bunch in the WH; if anything, you just showed how similar they are. Once again, you are positioning McCain's campaign as running against the way things are done in Congress, but he's not running for that, he's running for the Executive branch. The things you outlined do not represent a different opinion then the current bunch in the executive branch, who also want to lower taxes on businesses and the rich at every opportunity.

C'mon Fox, you can do better then this. Show what specific Bush policies McCain is against, both in terms of taxation and other things.

Additionally, the '35% corporate tax rate' is bullshit. This is before deductions and loopholes, most of which cut down business taxes to below 20% or even below 10% in many cases. And that's not counting local incentives to do business; I know in Austin, we cut taxes to the bone in order to attract businesses. You won't get far convincing people that the corporate tax rate needs to be cut, unless you are truthful about the amount they actually pay.

Cycloptichorn
Ramafuchs
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:25 pm
@Ramafuchs,
Here is a conservative German Daily 's view

John McCain has positioned himself as the John Wayne of politics. He’ll ride out to take on Washington as an independent man with gun-toting Sarah from the frontier at his side. Or, as he puts it, “I don’t work for a party. I don’t work for special interests. I don’t work for myself. I work for you.” McCain belongs to George W. Bush’s party. He embraced him on a public stage in 2004. Will anyone buy his image as a lone gun against the big shots?

Probably. The situation is similar to Germany in 1998: Helmut Kohl had to go and if Wolfgang Schäuble and Angela Merkel had united against the red-green coalition, the CDU would have stood a chance. It might at least have been a close election. Gerhard Schroeder was O.K., but some were put off by the Greens. Barack Obama is O.K. but some are put off by a black candidate. The U.S.A. hasn’t swung to the left as Germany did after Hartz.* But Obama has steadily drifted toward the right in order to improve his election chances. That’s the situation.

In America, Bush isn’t the problem, Congress is. There, it’s popularly believed that spoilsports and partisans fight for every tiny advantage and the result is a sort of political Verdun. Nothing moves anymore. Bush’s approval rating is at 30 percent and Congress’s is at 14, the lowest ever recorded. That affects not only Republicans. Nancy Pelosi, who was praised in 2006 as the first woman Speaker of the House of Representatives, watches as her autobiography moves to the discount shelf at bookstores.

A visual comparison of the conventions is somber for McCain. Obama’s power was overwhelming. His words, like polished gems, were presented in a grandiose setting. McCain offered patriotic bricks in an unspectacular setting. He’s one up on Obama in the fact that in his 72 years he’s been militarily and politically closer to death than to life four times. The old man saddles up and rides off into America’s small towns. Barack Obama hasn’t met his match in John McCain, but he’s found a worthy opponent.
http://watchingamerica.com/News/5480/john-mccain-plays-john-wayne/
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:36 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Come on Cyclop. I accept that as your opinion. I just don't share it. You'll have to back it up with more than opinion to discredit the Forbes article and/or my opinion about it.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Come on Cyclop. I accept that as your opinion. I just don't share it. You'll have to back it up with more than opinion to discredit the Forbes article and/or my opinion about it.


So, just to be clear, you don't think that these are opinions or platforms that are espoused by Bush? It's not a question of opinion, it's a question of the record of the current crop and the proposals of the new ones being extremely similar if not exactly the same on these issues.

Cycloptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Sat 6 Sep, 2008 02:40 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
McSame


Only the ignorant use that term...


That is right. Enlightened people use more educated terms, like liberaltard.
 

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