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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 06:55 pm
Today was not a good day for the McCain campaign.

Quote:
Wheels come off Straight Talk Express?
Posted: Saturday, September 13, 2008 6:33 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: 2008, McCain

From NBC's Mark Murray
For a candidate who prides himself in "straight talk" -- and whose political image in part is based on that truth-telling reputation -- Saturday proved to be a brutal day for John McCain and his campaign.

First came a front-page New York Times piece noting that McCain "has drawn an avalanche of criticism this week from Democrats, independent groups and even some Republicans for regularly stretching the truth." There was also an accompanying fact-check of McCain's latest TV ad, which called it the "latest in a number that resort to a dubious disregard for the facts."

The Washington Post gave "four Pinnochios" to McCain's recent assertion on "The View" that Palin never took earmarks as Alaska governor. Then the Boston Globe reported that Palin didn't really travel inside Iraq as has been claimed. And Bloomberg News said that the McCain camp may not have been exactly truthful in estimating the size of its recent crowds. "Now officials say they can't substantiate the figures McCain's aides are claiming."

To top it off, McCain spokesman Brian Rogers said this to the Politico about the increased media scrutiny of the campaign's factual claims: "We’re running a campaign to win. And we’re not too concerned about what the media filter tries to say about it.”

Not surprisingly, the Obama camp has pounced on all this, issuing a memo to reporters entitled "Unraveling the myth of the Straight Talk Express." The memo argues, "Since naming Governor Palin as their vice presidential nominee, the McCain campaign has distorted, distracted, and outright lied to the American people about her record in a desperate attempt to hide the fact that a McCain/Palin Administration would be nothing more than a continuation of the failed Bush policies of the last eight years."

And it concludes, "While the media is slowly starting to call the McCain campaign on their dishonest tactics, McCain’s staff boasts that they don’t care. As a McCain spokesman told the Politico, 'We’re running a campaign to win. And we’re not too concerned about what the media filter tries to say about it.'"


http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/09/13/1393986.aspx

Wow - their own advisers admitting that they don't care if they get caught lying? Talk of the 'media filter?'

Entering crazy territory on the Republican side of things. It won't go well to ignore those who are calling you on your lies. Portrays you as not only liars, but arrogant bastards as well.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 06:56 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

I kept up, Fox, so yes, I noticed that you used that argument as well. But I have no beef with that argument.

I did have a beef with your "but he cant use a keyboard because he's disabled" argument. It makes no sense, considering all the technology, and more damningly, it's demonstrably false, considering McCain's and his campaign manager's own descriptions of how he does use computers and the Internet.

The image of McCain tooling around on the Internet with people's Blackberrys reveals the Obama ad as stupid - but it also reveals this particular counterargument of yours as nonsense. Maybe next time pause before you echo a talking point from the conservative pundits.

Quote:
he does not need to send emails personally. He has staff who can do that for him.

Again, I have no beef with that argument, I just made it myself. What I had a beef with was the other attack you tried on. That "Obama's team didn't do their research," because if it had, it would have found out that McCain just cant use email because of his "severe war injuries". That's bull.

Quote:
Try a little understanding of those who have disabilities that you don't and who have lived a lot longer than you have lived and you might develop a somewhat different perspective about a lot of things.

Oh spare me the sanctimony. I can just imagine what you would have written if it had been a Republican ad slamming a Democratic presidential candidate for not knowing how to do email.


I never said he can't use a computer because he is disabled. It was somebody else in 2000 making the argument that he can't use a keyboard because he is disabled; but, given the severity of his disabilities, I have no reason to doubt that he can't type on a keyboard as you and I type on a keyboard. Do you have any authoritative information that would dispute that?

My argument all along is that him choosing not to use a computer, especially given his disability, is no way a disqualification or indication that he is 'out of touch' or 'behind the times'. As I previously posted, I know people who are brilliant and way ahead of the times who don't like to use a computer and who are pretty well computer illiterate. And they do not do email.

And my argument is also that ridiculing a man who makes such a choice due to a disability earned in service to his country is hitting pretty low. And shame on Obama for doing that.

And you have no authority or information that would suggest that I would not think it inappropriate and unkind and stupid for a Republican to ridicule a Democrat in similar circumstances.
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:00 pm
@Asherman,
I wish and hope those idiotic doctors, engneers, cab-drivers, potatoe pickers should leave USA and allow the Americans to munch their freedom fry and wave the flag with patriotic fervor.
I will never visit USA though I have got sdo many friends and relatives in the above mentioned profession.
Amen
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

nimh wrote:

I kept up, Fox, so yes, I noticed that you used that argument as well. But I have no beef with that argument.

I did have a beef with your "but he cant use a keyboard because he's disabled" argument. It makes no sense, considering all the technology, and more damningly, it's demonstrably false, considering McCain's and his campaign manager's own descriptions of how he does use computers and the Internet.

The image of McCain tooling around on the Internet with people's Blackberrys reveals the Obama ad as stupid - but it also reveals this particular counterargument of yours as nonsense. Maybe next time pause before you echo a talking point from the conservative pundits.

Quote:
he does not need to send emails personally. He has staff who can do that for him.

Again, I have no beef with that argument, I just made it myself. What I had a beef with was the other attack you tried on. That "Obama's team didn't do their research," because if it had, it would have found out that McCain just cant use email because of his "severe war injuries". That's bull.

Quote:
Try a little understanding of those who have disabilities that you don't and who have lived a lot longer than you have lived and you might develop a somewhat different perspective about a lot of things.

Oh spare me the sanctimony. I can just imagine what you would have written if it had been a Republican ad slamming a Democratic presidential candidate for not knowing how to do email.


I never said he can't use a computer because he is disabled. That was somebody else making the argument that he can't use a keyboard because he is disabled; but, given the severity of his disabilities, I have no reason to doubt that he can't type on a keyboard as you and I type on a keyboard. Do you have any authoritative information that would dispute that?

My argument all along is that him choosing not to use a computer, especially given his disability, is no way a disqualification or indication that he is 'out of touch' or 'behind the times'. As I previously posted, I know people who are brilliant and way ahead of the times who don't like to use a computer and who are pretty well computer illiterate. And they do not do email.

And my argument is to ridicule a man who makes such a choice due to a disability earned in service to his country is hitting pretty low. And shame on Obama for doing that.

And you have no authority or information that would suggest that I would not think it inappropriate and unkind and stupid for a Republican to ridicule a Democrat in similar circumstances.


Fox, you transparent fake. What a bunch of bullcrap. I know several disabled and blind people who email all the time. I guarantee that McCain's disability does not prevent him from using the computer.

And it is a disqualifying mark for many of us. Information and news move quick in this digital age, not to mention the vast amount of other services that a computer can provide you. A president who can use Google and other methods of research can find independent reports on any subject, from perspectives that are not connected to those who would push their own agenda within the government - especially the dreaded bureaucracy, which Republicans love to malign.

A president who cannot or does not take an active interest in their own forms of research gets everything through a filter of their handlers. Everything. They have a much reduced ability to be independent of those who color the data. It's ludicrous that you could claim that that not knowing how to, or choosing not to, use a computer is not a negative mark in our society. It clearly is. Fewer and fewer people eschew computers, for they are really nothing but tools.

Let me put it this way - if you were hiring someone for a job, ANY job, but especially an important one ; and they didn't know how to use a computer? They were computer illiterate? Would you hire them? Hell, no you wouldn't. Why treat the president as if he's any different?

Like Nimh said, save your fake sanctimony, it's disgusting.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I never said he can't use a computer because he is disabled. That was somebody else making the argument that he can't use a keyboard because he is disabled

Oh fer chrissakes Fox. Here's what you wrote:

_____
Foxfyre wrote:
Again Obama's team didn't do their research. From a 2000 Boston.com in depth piece on McCain. (The whole thing is a good read for those who want to get a better sense about the man):

Quote:
McCain gets emotional at the mention of military families needing food stamps or veterans lacking health care. The outrage comes from inside: McCain's severe war injuries prevent him from combing his hair, typing on a keyboard, or tying his shoes.

_____
You contended that "again Obama didn't do their research", and proved so by quoting the account that "McCain's severe war injuries prevent him from typing on a keyboard". That was your argument. And it's BS. According to McCain himself, he is already using internet, so his war injuries obviously dont prevent him from using email. And you dont need a keyboard to use email.

Foxfyre wrote:
I have no reason to doubt that he can't type on a keyboard as you and I type on a keyboard. Do you have any authoritative information that would dispute that?

How is this relevant? If you need a reminder, this was my point:

"We are to believe that McCain just can't email, because of his disability? One: have the people using this line ever heard of voice recognition software? Or other adjustments? [..] Two: how does this purported defense line up with the bunch of times that McCain and his campaign have said that he can operate a computer, is learning how to, etc?"

Foxfyre wrote:
My argument all along is that him choosing not to use a computer, [..] is no way a disqualification

I agreed with that part. Thats not the part I was responding to. {shrugs}

Foxfyre wrote:
And you have no authority or information that would suggest that I would not think it inappropriate and unkind and stupid for a Republican to ridicule a Democrat in similar circumstances.

The "authority" I have is having witnessed your posts for something like four years. Works for me.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:12 pm
@nimh,
Nimh. I know you are sufficiently proficient in English that you can't possibly misread "can't" versus "choose not to" unless you're doing it on purpose. I have not at any time said that McCain cannot send Email. Try re-reading what I have said again.

I do agree with you that you have been reading my posts mostly wrong for four years though.
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Try re-reading what I have said again.

I just quoted it, Fox.

Yes, I know that you walked your position back to - paraphrasing - "well, in any case nobody should blame him if he chooses to not use email" - in later posts. And I dont have any beef with that part.

My beef is with the post you wrote that I just quoted again. You wanna pretend you never wrote it, fine. {shrugs}
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:21 pm
@nimh,
Where does that quote in screaming red say anything about email? I didn't write the quote. I copied and linked it from another source from eight years ago. Where have I said anywhere that McCain can't send email? All I have said is that it had been pointed out, years ago, that he can't type on a keyboard because of his war injuries. And that disablity explains why he doesn't know how to send an email. He doesn't use a computer. I explained why he probably doesn't use a computer. If you've not done it, you don't know how to do it. Why is that such a problem for you?

Where is your evidence that McCain CAN type on a keyboard?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:

Entering crazy territory on the Republican side of things. It won't go well to ignore those who are calling you on your lies. Portrays you as not only liars, but arrogant bastards as well.


Where have these media assholes been for the last eight years?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Oh and Nimh, where is your source for McCain saying that he personally uses the internet? His staff and campaign certainly do, but he himself? I don't think so since he, his campaign staff, and his office staffers have said he doesn't use a computer.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 07:51 pm
@Asherman,
Asherman wrote:

. . . .Our horrible system has managed to build a mighty nation that has carried the hopes and dreams of countless people living under the yoke of systems that you apparently believe are superior to ours. What do you know of about what Americans dream of away from the spotlight of media coverage? Gov. Palin's popularity certainly isn't due to her political connections, or cosmopolitan sophistication. Her popularity stems from the perception that she embodies the values of ordinary Americans. McCain's strength is that his whole life experiences have been heroic , and that his honor and integrity typify what we Americans value in a man. You might not like it, but once again, you don't get to vote here ... thank god.


I was afraid this would get lost in the pages of absurd quibble over an inept Obama ad and McCain sending emails.

I thought it deserved to be seen. I believe it is what you say here, coupled with excessive whining and pettiness from the Left, that accounts for McCain and Palin's surge in the polls.

And I agree with you and James that an Obama presidency with a Democratically controlled Congress is a grim prospect. But as grim as that would be, I think a brokered election would make things far far worse. So if we're going to get Obama, I hope it is by a decisive and unchallenged election. I do believe McCain/Palin are the much better choice for the health and welfare of the nation, however.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 08:00 pm
Not so honorable when he cheated on his disabled wife and left her for a beer heiress. Nope. Not so much. But you guys always seem to forget about that part, don't you?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/politics/14palin.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 08:14 pm
McCain writes in his own autobiography:
Quote:
“My marriage’s collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity. The blame was entirely mine.”


He repeated that again to Rick Warren a few weeks ago in the Saddleback interview citing his failed first marriage and divorce as his greatest failure.

And John McCain continues to pay all medical expenses for Carol McCain. And she speaks quite favorably of him.

That was 28 years ago. I think he has admitted his mistake as best as he can and has spent sufficient time in purgatory.

I have never heard Obama admit that he has made a mistake doing anything.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 08:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
One of our law professors was fond of saying, "argue the facts, but if the facts don't support you, then argue the Law and if there isn't adequate supportive law, you must appeal to the sentiment of the jury. If all else fails, then jump up and down and make mountains out of mole hills."

In political campaigns all Parties rely upon sentiment, image and spin. Facts are seldom clear, and there is no authority that can be appealed to. Political campaigns deal primarily in the future where glowing promises, fervent hopes, and gut wrenching fear prevail. Parties appeal to their "base" whose idealism is focused on political theories more than on realities. What is left, but spin, spin, spin. As voters we needed to cut through all that chatter and rhetoric and make our choices on more realistic foundations.

We need to keep in mind the role, the duties and responsibilities that the Constitution place at the disposal of the Executive. Those essentials are to manage the executive functions of our government, to set and conduct foreign policy, negotiate Treaties, propose budgets, make periodic reports to the Congress, and above all command the military forces of the nation. The executive is intended to make decisions without regard to their popularity in Congress, much less by the mob or foreign interests.

Setting aside campaign rhetoric, which candidate hold most closely to the political philosophy embodied in the Constitution? Which is the more mature and responsible candidate? We have to make the judgment on our own. Polls won't do, neither will the ruminations of the media commentariat. What do we reasonably know about the candidate(s) when they were off stage, and before they were stung with the notion that they should run for high government office? What sort of life experiences did they have, and how did they handle stress and risk? Did the candidate choose to pursue a course of action for a larger purpose regardless of the risk to their own self-interest? When faced with a moral or physical challenge did they face up to it, or try to avoid the issue? Does the candidate have a set of core values that are clear and consistent with the traditional values that have guided the United States since its Founding?

The responsible voter will listen and observe the campaign, but in the end will make their choice not on the basis of the campaign, but rather on those factors I've outlined above. For me, that choice is clear and John McCain is with no doubt whatsoever the best choice to lead our nation during the next four years. For others the choice may very well be Barak Obama. Regardless of how we individually decide to vote, the election will be determined in accordance with the totality of votes and the Constitutional system for selecting the new administration. A landslide for the GOP would be nice, but I doubt that will happen. American politics has been increasingly influenced by those in a few large markets whose values have shifted away from faith in the individual to manage his own life and self interests. The idea that Government can and should manage every detail of our lives is far too common these days. At the same time, and with the same group who hold that belief, there is a demand that Government never take a position that is unpopular, or not completely supported by their interest group. Oh well.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 08:41 pm
@nimh,
Hi nimh,

Quote:
Good god, yes, why should anyone expect someone nominated to be a heartbeat away from the presidency to be "familiar or comfortable with the issues"? How unreasonable would that be, to expect a Vice-Presidential nominee to know his/her way around the issues of the day? (Hey, that rhymes.)


You have a valid point but I think it is a relatively small one. McCain's medical history is well known and the Doc's have given him a clean bill of health. Americans have seen relatively older presidential candidates before and don't seem particularly put off by it when it actually comes down to making their final decision in Novembers past.

As to the V.P. being less than knowledgeable about issue's I would submit that, to me, it is more important to know how she feels generally about the issues -- should the government be smaller or should it try to create a Scandinavian model, should we adopt a more European attitude towards our foreign policy or should we demand that the president conduct a foreign policy that protects our interests around the world and the American way of life as his main concern. Palin’s view on abortion is not to my liking but it is more consistent and easier to defend than McCain’s. Both consider themselves pro-life but McCain would OK abortion in cases of rape, incest, or in the case of the mother’s life at risk. Palin would OK only when the mother’s life was at risk. This moral ideological base allows us to get a better idea of the candidate’s character and how he/she would deal with future events. Starting with George Washington all of our presidents probably received a lot of OJT (On the Job Training) as did their vice-presidents. At this point I am sure Palin will be fully educated and I have confidence that she will approach her responsibilities with an ideology that approximates my own. Truthfully, she might be more Republican than John McCain.

Quote:
Seriously - unwittingly you point out the recklessness of the Republican choice here. You have nominated someone for VP who still needs "an education program" to be familiar and comfortable with the issues. Basic stuff like how entitlement programs work. How surreal is that? Dan Quayle redux?

John McCain being reckless? Perhaps he was just desperate. But if not Palin who? Who would have gendered all this excitement. The republicans are energized to a degree no one thought possible. Sure this could be short term and we will have a better idea in about a week or so but the votes that must be won are the independent, last minute deciders that really do want to examine the canidates and make the right pick for America. It is they that will turn the tide one way or the other. But I feel these Americans are looking towards character in addition to what side has a better view of the issues more in line with their own. Obama seems a mystery. The mantel of inexperience many would place on the GOP VP pick fits at least as comfortably upon the Democratic pick for president. He is steeped in generalities of hope and change and the wonderful gauze of oratory. His flip-flops, generated by Clintonian triangulation, bring him in line with long held McCain positions. John McCain was before or against way before Obama was. McCain has a record of character defining positions, Palin is one of them.

JM
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  3  
Reply Sat 13 Sep, 2008 09:25 pm
Checking in here, scanning all the posts for the past few pages. A few things stand out.
Libs are getting frantic. I don't think I've seen nimh so agitated. And why does he care about who we elect as president, it isn't his business as far as I can tell. And what does it matter how the rest of the world votes for president here? I don't think it is their job to elect our president.

And for crying out loud, what does it matter if McCain does not use a computer? I don't think it is a presidents job, he has plenty of staff to use the computer, send emails, etc., in fact not advisable or wise for presidents to send emails I don't think. Of all the bizarre things to bring up, doesn't Obama have just one substantial issue to run on besides that? What a loser? He is dumber than I thought.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:14 am
McCain reaches 50% in the Rasmussen poll for the first time today and I think that newsworthy enough to note. Unless there is a dramatic shift in the numbers, I probably won't post further daily updates and may just post the update periodically.

RCP average has McCain up another 1/10th at 2.4.

The Rasmussen update- Sunday 9-14-08
Quote:
Daily Presidential Tracking Poll
Sunday, September 14, 2008 Email to a FriendAdvertisement
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Sunday shows John McCain reaching the 50% level of support for the first time since Barack Obama wrapped up the Democratic Presidential Nomination. McCain retains a three-point advantage for the third straight day, 50% to 47% (see recent daily results).

Tracking Poll results are released at 9:30 a.m. Eastern Time each day and a FREE daily e-mail update is available. Earlier, Rasmussen Reports reported tracking poll results both with and without leaners. Now that Election Day is drawing near, we will report only the results with leaners.

Voters are evenly divided as to who they think will win, but McCain voters are now more excited about the election than Obama’s. Rasmussen Markets data gives McCain a 52.7% chance of victory while expectations for Obama are at 46.0%. These figures are updated on a 24/7 basis by market participants.

McCain is viewed favorably by 57% of the nation’s voters while Obama earns positive reviews from 53% (see trends). McCain is supported by 90% of Republicans and has a six-point edge among unaffiliated voters. Eighty-two percent (82%) of Democrats say they’ll vote for Obama.


This can be found at Rasmussen.com. Until I figure out how to link the way we did on the old A2K so long links don't stretch the page, I'm trying to avoid using the long links.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:16 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Checking in here, scanning all the posts for the past few pages. A few things stand out.
Libs are getting frantic. I don't think I've seen nimh so agitated. And why does he care about who we elect as president, it isn't his business as far as I can tell. And what does it matter how the rest of the world votes for president here? I don't think it is their job to elect our president.

And for crying out loud, what does it matter if McCain does not use a computer? I don't think it is a presidents job, he has plenty of staff to use the computer, send emails, etc., in fact not advisable or wise for presidents to send emails I don't think. Of all the bizarre things to bring up, doesn't Obama have just one substantial issue to run on besides that? What a loser? He is dumber than I thought.


Why is it not advisable for the Prez to send emails, Okie? Specifically.

Cyclotichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:18 am
An anti-Palin rally in Anchorage drew over 1400 people, making it the largest political rally in AK history.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn312/Paul_H_Rosenberg/AlaskaRally.png

Not everyone there is happy with Palin, let's just put it that way Laughing

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Sun 14 Sep, 2008 09:35 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I'm sure most of those who label themselves feminists--note sign in background--do hate her guts. She is a conservative and therefore not entitled to recognition, accomplishment, success, appreciation, or fairness of any kind. I would be worried if these types liked her. If they did, she sure wouldn't be what I wanted in a vice president or president.
0 Replies
 
 

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