Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 06:12 am
sozobe wrote:

...I have personally loved him but have been hesitant to back the idea of a presidential bid in 2008 for three main reasons, and also the ways they interact:
...[removed other two reasons]...
Inexperience: This is the one that has changed the most since Obama first came up. I, personally, like to have a leader with a lot of experience. But things I've read here and that I've seen in general seem to be indicating that the zeitgeist is more towards "FRESH START." Get rid of the lying liars, the politicos, the fat cats. Get a breath of fresh air in there, someone with integrity and enthusiasm. Obama has that, in spades.

Things I've always liked about him:
...
Savvy: He's made a lot of good decisions, politically.

Charisma: He's got it.

Idealism: This goes back to what I said re: inexperienced -- I think it's something that people really like to see, and can be especially good when paired with young.

Humor: Slightly different than charisma, and what made me start this thread.
...
She points out that Obama is 44, and that JFK, "who had a reputation as a callow playboy and lawmaker who barely knew his way around the Hill, was 43 when he became president."

What I know for sure is that when I think of all of the possible Democratic nominees, my reaction ranges from "could be OK" to "OH LORD PLEASE NO!!!", with one exception. Obama is the only one who makes me think, "Oh man, that would be SO great!!"

What do you think?





Attached is Soz's first post (some content removed) about Obama on the Obama '08 thread (early 2006). I think this was after he announced his intention to run (may be wrong).

I read this and I'm see some close simularities to Sarah Palin, however the response from people on this board have been drastically different.

Thoughts?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 7 • Views: 2,175 • Replies: 38

 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 06:20 am
@maporsche,
It is quite obvious. Many of the A2K members are of a liberal bent. In addition, Obama is the first person that I can remember since Jack Kennedy who has captured the imagination of many people to the extent that Obama has. There are people who are very emotionally connected to Obama, and the thought of putting someone up for veep who might tilt the balance terrifies some.

It seems to me that if McCain had put up Abraham Lincoln for veep, there would be people on this forum who would go out of their way to find fault with him!
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 06:35 am
@maporsche,
No, this was well before he announced his intentions to run.

And the "I personally have loved him" part is pertinent here, too. I wrote that in 2006; I'd been following what he had been doing at that point since 2002. I'd read a lot about what he thinks, HOW he thinks, his background, his philosophies, etc., etc.

For example, this is what I say on the second page of that thread:

sozobe wrote:
OK, that's all I'm going for at this point. Good to know. I've been extremely impressed with his ideas, philosophies, and policies so far -- as well as his ability to communicate them -- so if that's what would decide you, I'd be optimistic.


http://able2know.org/topic/71145-2#post-1923677

And later on that page:

sozobe wrote:
Here's his website, with lots of info about him:

http://www.barackobama.com/main.php


http://able2know.org/topic/71145-2#post-1923695

That "lots of info" was head and shoulders above what's currently available about Palin. Did you see where I linked to the "On the Issues" pages for her (an incredible amount of blank space) and then to the pages of Obama and Biden (jam-packed)?

I think Palin might be a very nice person and a promising political candidate. But I think that her selection undercuts McCain's ability to claim that Obama's inexperience is a problem... which I've pointed out. And I think the very real ethics investigation that she is the subject of is a concern as well.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:08 am
What is going to be truly interesting is how the "inexperience" angle is going to play out.
While it is true that Sarah Palin is inexperienced in national or international affairs, as an executive she does have more experience then Obama.
Yes, he is a US Senator, but his record in the Senate really isnt that impressive.
He hasnt really done anything since he was elected to the Senate, except run for President.

If the Obama camp starts to attack her inexperience, that will open them up to even more attacks about his own inexperience.
IMO, it is better to have the mor experienced person at the top of the ticket, not in the VP slot.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:12 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

IMO, it is better to have the mor experienced person at the top of the ticket, not in the VP slot.


I don't think ANYONE can argue with you there.
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:24 am
@maporsche,
In most cases, I would agree that it is more important for the president to have the experience. The problem is, that McCain IS rather long in the tooth, and there is always the possibility that he could die while in office. That would then make Palin the president.

In the case of Obama, that fact that he has picked an old warhorse for his running mate speaks volumes.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:46 am
@Phoenix32890,
Yes it does speak volumes about Obama.
He chose as his VP a man that has spent MORE time in the Senate then McCain, yet Obama's whole mantra is about "change", and fixing DC.
I dont see how choosing as your VP a man that has been part of the problem equals "fixing" DC or of this mythical "change" that Obama speaks of.
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:56 am
@mysteryman,
Quote:
Yes it does speak volumes about Obama.
He chose as his VP a man that has spent MORE time in the Senate then McCain, yet Obama's whole mantra is about "change", and fixing DC.
I dont see how choosing as your VP a man that has been part of the problem equals "fixing" DC or of this mythical "change" that Obama speaks of.


I am standing back, and observing this whole thing with a jaundiced eye. I think that you are so right. If Obama really wanted change, he would have picked someone who had executive experience, but was not part of the D.C. "good old boys" network. It was quite obvious that he was attempting to pick someone who could "teach him the ropes". Problem is, the presidency is no place for an apprentice.
old europe
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 07:59 am
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Problem is, the presidency is no place for an apprentice.


That, and that McCain can't promise not to die....
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:02 am
@old europe,
Do you realize how silly that sounds?
Nobody can promise NOT to die.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:03 am
@mysteryman,
Exactly, mysteryman. Exactly.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  0  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:09 am
@old europe,
I agree. I think that there are problems with both candidates.

Mysteryman- IMO it is NOT silly. Sure, a 20 year old can go outside and get hit by a bus, but that is a long shot, statistically. As a person who is not as old as McCain, but getting there, I can forsee health problems, that I didn't even consider when I was younger. This is a reality.

The think that really tickles me about Obama and Biden, is that should Obama get in, I can imagine what would be going through Biden's mind when he has to go along with his boss' orders, a man young enough to be his son, especially when Biden himself wanted to become President.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  5  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:11 am
@maporsche,
This argument is silly. Barack Obama is elite.

He has an impressive education. He has impressive grasp of the issues. He has amazing rhetorical skills. He has debated with great intelligence and poise the important issues of today. He projects leadership and vision.

Sarah Palin is not elite.

Go look at a video Obama giving a speech or an interview. Then go watch a video of a Sarah Palin speech. Then tell me with a straight face that Palin has the thoughtfulness, impressive intelligence, or confident leadership that makes Obama such an impressive candidate.

This line of argument is silly.
Phoenix32890
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:18 am
@ebrown p,
Quote:
Then tell me with a straight face that Palin has the thoughtfulness, impressive intelligence, or confident leadership that makes Obama such an impressive candidate.


One of Obama's outstanding skills is his ability to communicate. But Obama is running against McCain, not Palin, so you are comparing apples with oranges.
If Obama was really so hell bent on "change" he would have chosen someone like Palin (but obviously someone with a more liberal stance), rather than a Washington hack.
ebrown p
 
  3  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:22 am
@Phoenix32890,
Did you read the title (and the first post) of this thread?

You are right that we should be comparing Palin with Biden. I say with confidence that should something happen to Obama, Biden would be a fully capable president.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:25 am
@Phoenix32890,
Why?

Seriously...

Obama is himself the change agent. He has said consistently that the way to change is to work -- effectively -- within the system.

Biden entered Washington as a change agent and has been someone who Gets Things Done during his time there. He's someone who knows how to work effectively within the system.

"Effectively" is key here. Hillary Clinton, for example, was extremely ineffective in her approach to health care, and Obama has said he wants to do several things differently. (Keep it open, not behind closed doors -- working with people, not just demanding capitulation... etc.)

Ultimately, as you say, Obama would be in charge. Biden seems genuinely fine with that -- he knows that his own chances for becoming president have dwindled to near-nonexistent, and he genuinely admires Obama and seems excited about this opportunity.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  7  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:36 am
@Phoenix32890,
There are two possibile reasons McCain picked Palin. Either it was a completely political move, in which Palin was picked not because of her qualification to be president, but because she shores up the religious wack-jobs and she has a vagina. In that case, he looks like a calculating dickweed, in my opinion, who has put politics in front of what's best for the country.

The other possibility is that he really thinks she can lead this country, if need be, in the event that something happens to him. If that is the case, then he has given up the ability to legitimately criticize Obama on experience from now on. If he really thinks she's qualified to take over the job if he kicks off, then how can he possibly think different of Obama?

The fact that he picked her even though he hardly knows her at all, and has only even spoke with her once or twice before is reason enough for a reasonable person to think it's a calculated political move.

Swimpy
 
  4  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:39 am
@kickycan,
Quote:
There are two possibile reasons McCain picked Palin. Either it was a completely political move, in which Palin was picked not because of her qualification to be president, but because she shores up the religious wack-jobs and she has a vagina. In that case, he looks like a calculating dickweed, in my opinion, who has put politics in front of what's best for the country.

The other possibility is that he really thinks she can lead this country, if need be, in the event that something happens to him. If that is the case, then he has given up the ability to legitimately criticize Obama on experience from now on. If he really thinks she's qualified to take over the job if he kicks off, then how can he possibly think different of Obama?

The fact that he picked her even though he hardly knows her at all, and has only even spoke with her once or twice before is reason enough for a reasonable person to think it's a calculated political move.

Bingo!
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:44 am
@Swimpy,
Yep. I up-thumbed it already but will add my "bingo."

And a quote from Heather McDonald, a Republican:

Quote:
"Washington Republicans have hardly kept themselves free of race- and gender-based decision making: one can think of many cabinet members and judicial nominations made on these grounds. But now they’ve gone all the way and introduced irrelevant chromosome considerations into the presidential race"the most important political choice in the land. And they have lost any standing to criticize Democrats for playing the race and gender cards,"
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  2  
Reply Mon 1 Sep, 2008 08:46 am
@Swimpy,
I think that both candidates picked their running mates as a political move. That is the nature of politics. One courts, coddles, even brown noses certain groups of people for one reason.............................to get elected. One picks a running mate whom he thinks will "fill in the gaps", and appeal to people who maybe otherwise would be undecided.

A person running for president picks a person whom he thinks will give him the "edge". IMO, anyone who does not see that is terribly naive.
 

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