Help! What can I do for my daughter?

Well Thomas-

On what basis does Debra stand this up on-



If you think that's good advice it's no wonder you lose every argument with the lady.

No experienced counsellor would dream of saying such a thing. And how tempting it is to do so. How nice it makes one feel to be such a source of reassurance and comfort. It's controlling. Fireproof too.

You'll never be known as an A-hole with that stuff.

The good news is that mame does not seem to be the type who would thus encourage her daughter to play the victim, though that Debra clearly would is a problem.

Hawkeye wrote: "The good news is that mame does not seem to be the type who would thus encourage her daughter to play the victim, though that Debra clearly would is a problem."

Without any doubt, Mame's daughter is going to experience a wide array of emotions--but my message was simple: I hope that she doesn't fall victim to the notion that SHE DESERVED to be abandoned by her husband so that he could pursue his interests in a 23-year-old co-worker. Anyone who believes that Mame's daughter ought to feel that she got what she deserved from her husband, come forward and defend your position.

Under the circumstances, I don't believe that this particular husband has proven himself to be a worthy or trustworthy life partner. Often times, the past is the key to the future. If this husband reconsiders his infatuation with another woman and decides that he wants to come home, the odds are that history will repeat itself. And, if Mame's daughter herself believes that she deserves better than what she got from her partner, then she won't take that risk of history repeating itself--she won't take him back. Encouraging one to develop one's sense of self-esteem and self-worth is not the same as encouraging one to "play the victim." If that's all you got from my post, then you don't read very well and you don't know me at all.

From personal experience, I know that life tends to teach us hard lessons that shape who we ultimately become as we grow older. It's akin to that old mythic saying: Out of the ashes rises the Phoenix. And because of those hard-learned lessons of the past, I can truly appreciate what I have now. I'm madly in love with my husband. He likes me for who I am, laughs with me, is in love with me, and holds my hand in the bad times as well as the good. It is natural for me to want others to find this same happiness with a life partner. Mame's daughter deserves no less. Why do you argue otherwise?

You are still casting the husband as a ****, when what we know about him indicates that he was standing in and trying to make it in the marriage but got overwhelmed. Mame says that he is a good guy, he was doing the counseling, and he agreed (we know this right?) to have another child which usually is intended to be a part of moving the marriage beyond the death of a child. In my opinion you don't get how hard it is to lose a child, and how much stress that puts on a marriage, so you go on blaming the husband and saying that the wife "did not deserve this"...

well, hell, he did not deserve this either. Nobody deserves to lose a child, the parents are supposed to die first. The death did not create the fracture in the marriage, but it expanded what was already there. What the cause of the fault was we can't know, but it is likely that both parties had a hand in it.

FYI, this is the second child since the child who passed away -- the husband's been moving on for a while, far as I can tell.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled posts, already in progress.

I don't think Debra is casting Greg as a ****; however, she is pointing out that he is untrustworthy as a marriage partner. Whatever the cause of the breakdown between them, and even they might not know as they only went to bereavement counselling together, not marriage counselling, he stopped communicating with her and then decided his best option was to leave without any discussion. It is not a good situation for any of the three involved, as they all work at the same place. I don't know what the young woman is about, but I feel for her, too, because she's getting involved with someone who clearly isn't whole and healthy, emotionally. She is 10 years his junior and is involved in a messy situation. She will be cast as the Other Woman by some, maybe even an outcast to those sympathetic with Denise, and that's really unfortunate. Apparently she has backed off from her "thing" with Greg, and I hope for her sake that she has.

They are all social workers, which makes this ironic. Denise will be viewed by some as the "victim", a term I detest, when she is not really a victim. She had a hand in this breakdown, too, somewhere, at some point.

Anyway, I'm not interested in assigning blame - what is the point of that? We all do what we need to do, so if Greg decided he needed to do this, then the fact is Denise is on her own and must learn to deal with it. Yes, it's an ugly shock, but I wonder if, a few months from now, she doesn't start talking about the signs she didn't or wouldn't see. She has the chance to learn a lot about herself and her part in all this. I hope she capitalizes on it.

That sounds so cold, perhaps, but I see it more as pragmatic and rational. Life deals you some nasty cards; all we can do is play them the best we can and not succumb to this victim mentality. Which, I'm sure, she won't.

Haven't you walked down this road, Mame?

Mame, communication is two parts, the speaking and the listening. We don't know what the breakdown looked like, maybe it was all him, but it could have just a likely been all her not being willing to listen. Or maybe he knew her well enough that he knew that she could never accept what he had to say and thus it was best to say nothing, to hope that a miracle happened and something changed. Of course your daughter says that it was him, but we don't know his side....how bout we leave it that we don't have enough information to know???

Debra wrote-



That is cheating. You are using the word "ought" in a devious way. Nobody is saying that she ought to feel she got what she deserved. The circumstances, taking everything into account, which you carefully avoid doing, stereotyping men as you do, resulted in what Mame's daughter has been landed with.

You obviously do not know how to get rid of a guy and having him take the blame. Or you are pretending you don't.

Lawyers see the joint assets of a broken relationship as something to which they have a rightful claim on. Bear that in mind Mame.

You can't even blame them. It's what they are conditioned to expect in law school.

Meanwhile, Greg has discovered this thread and watches from a safe distance the perceived intrusion of his mother-in-law...

Whatever the reasons.... it's happened.

The only way forward right now is getting a vulnerable preganant young lady thru her pregnancy and keeping her, her baby and her little girl safe and sound and helping her Mom with any positive advice... tho she does like an interesting positive dicussion - not a judge and jury discussing a perceived nasty piece of work and a victim daughter.

Marriage takes two to make and two to break - the death of their beautiful child would have been horrendous for both of them - eveything changed then.

Is there a way to try to focus on how to move forward positively instead on casting jusdgements on things we dont know anything about. Even Spendi is giving out some food for thought... albeit in a Spendi way.

At the end of the day.... we don't Greg - if Mame says he's an alright guy - well I would trust her judgement there - she's a pretty solid person - even if hes done a sh!tty to the max thing. Denise needs as much positive influence in her life as possible right coz when she starts feeling real cr*p - others being cr*p around her will be no good. Compassion and understanding for whatever her feelings are will be what she needs - not mamby pampying - she;s not your namby pamby type (takes after her Mom) and if Mame thinks her daughter needs a little push in a forward direction - well, she's just the person to lead her there... no matter what Greg has done - right now, it's about Denise and what Mame is asking for. A way to ensure Denise can deal - albeit words. A way for Mame to give her the right vibes.

K... goodnite.

(sorry if I'm outta order Mame... just... you know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! pffffft)

Christ on a cracker.

I still think you need to explain why it was a rare man in my father's generation who would do this so easily. There are other ways of coping.

Make divorce easy and acceptable and this is what you are going to get. By the million. The bonds of steel Mr Clendening mentioned are now gossamer threads.

Don't buy into that and then start screaming about the obvious consequences.

(Heck... maybe not just Gustav full of hot wind a!.... sorry... back in my box)










pfffffssffst

I think that we have heard second hand that Denise agrees that it is time to move on, we have heard Mame say it, and it is true. It is some a2k members who feel the need to go back and assign blame, when they don't know enough to judge...I don't know what happened and neither do they.

I am not getting the point of your post Izzie, because we are in agreement.

Izzie might have been referring to this-



Which sounds like Gus has a side. I have no side.

Mothers naturally take an interest in such matters as this. I hardly think it an "intrusion."

Which road, baby?

He's better looking than that. And taller. He's got Go-Go-Gadget arms.

What's up with these hyper-sensitive retrosexuals getting their panties in a twist over any imaginable slight to menfolk here? You guys need to work on more chest thumping and less sniveling or you are going to lose your troglodyte card. Retrosexuals aren't supposed to be such pussies.

I think you misunderstood me, hawkeye - The worse I think of Greg is his leaving without talking with his wife about his concerns in order to remedy them or making an attempt at getting some professional help. Giving up on their relationship and family without giving her a chance to change, talk, adapt, whatever. I didn't even say it was wrong. And I always maintained that people need to do what they think they need to do, which he did.

I'm pretty much 100% sure it wasn't all him or all her.