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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Apr, 2012 03:49 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
Ah, Tennessee once again prepares to be the laughingstock of the nation.


And the purest atheist society is the laughing stock of the ballistic missile industry and it hadn't even needed to do the R&D.

Modern science is a characteristic of Christianity.

Are there any lingerie shops in Pyongyang?
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Apr, 2012 10:54 pm
@wandeljw,
Could plz stop quoting massive walls of txt, but clip out pharses that has relevance to this discussion?
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 08:48 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer wrote:

Could plz stop quoting massive walls of txt, but clip out pharses that has relevance to this discussion?
You really reached back in time for that one Wink
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 08:53 am
@rosborne979,
I never reaized that this was even a discussion.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 09:04 am
@farmerman,
I clicked on his link and ended up back in 2008. Felt like I was in a time warp. Saw some of my own posts, barely recognized them and wasn't even sure what I was talking about. Smile
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 09:15 am
@rosborne979,
That puts you even with spendi. Razz
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 09:28 am
@HexHammer,
You told me once that English is not your first language. This may be why long text bothers you.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 09:41 am
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

That puts you even with spendi. Razz
Who?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 11:25 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
That puts you even with spendi.


I know what I'm talking about ed. You needn't worry about that.

As Spengler said-" Nature is a possession which is saturated through and through with the most personal connotations. Nature is the function of a particular Culture. "

Do you know that the lack of perspective in children's drawings is not perceptible to the kids. They need training.

Intuitive perception is opposed to rational comprehension and if rational comprehension is a given, as you have to say it is, then why are the art forms of each culture so different when artists use form as symbols of a description of Nature. As do sub-divisions within cultures such as individuals or groups of like-minded people.

Your simple minded approach in underpants down mode is only rational to you and those who think the same way and you are well out voted.

Snidey remarks are your forte



0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 11:30 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Who?


That's a lie. ros knows full well who spendi is. He has just regaled us all with a precious little pettifogging piece of snobbish affectation which I thought was only permitted to ladies of a certain station in life.

It was intended as oneupmanship and has precisely the opposite effect on any averagely intelligent audience.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Apr, 2012 01:12 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I never reaized that this was even a discussion.


Obviously. It never was for you fm. Your temperament is totally unsuitable for discussions. Same goes for your claque whose contributions to this page make it look like something from Relationships or Parenting.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 11:25 am
Quote:
What Is the Best Way to Deal With Supernaturalists in Science and Evolution?
(James A. Shapiro, HuffingtonPost.com, April 16, 2012)

In commenting on my last blog, Lyaeus 10 pointed out how serious the problem has become with the introduction of supernatural ideas into the classroom: "I live in a state that just passed laws to 'teach the controversy' in regards to controversial sciences which is rather obviously a way to get special creation and flood geology and other such hypotheses of no relevant intellectual value into the classrooms."

What is the best way to deal with such intrusions into science education?

The conventional approach has been to circle the wagons around mid-19th and mid-20th century ideas (Darwinism and neo-Darwinism). This approach has not been successful. One reason Darwinism has failed to convince skeptics may be that it ignores over 60 years of molecular science.

Thirty years ago, I was at a conference in Cambridge, England, to celebrate the centennial of Darwin's death. There, Richard Dawkins began his lecture by saying, "I will not only explain that Darwin had the right answer, but I will show that he had the only possible right answer."

Hearing this (and knowing that alternative explanations inevitably arise in science), I said to myself that the Creationists have a point. They are dealing with a form of religious belief on the "evolution" side. Dawkins' transformation into an aggressive proselytizer for his undoubting and absolutist version of atheism confirms this conclusion.

One of the Creationists' main tools is the argument that evolutionists are simply militant atheists in drag, who care more about dissing religion than about understanding evolution. Dawkins' ill-considered crusade just bolsters their position.

Rather than accept that evolution science is always a tentative work in progress, conventional evolutionists make absolutist statements like "all the facts are on my side." Making obviously inflated and unrealistic assertions is hardly likely to convince anyone who has serious questions.

What is the alternative?

Let me suggest that we can take a more modern, more realistic and more truly scientific approach. It contains the following elements.

1. We need to emphasize that science operates strictly within the natural world and treats all theories as subject to criticism, revision and (ultimately) replacement. Think of Newtonian ideas of space, time and gravity as compared to Einsteinian general relativity. There is no reason to believe that evolution science is in any way special in this regard.

2. As we apply new technologies, such as genome sequencing, our confidence becomes stronger in the relatedness of all existing life forms, including human beings. In particular, our insights into the details of these relationships become ever more explicit. We can point to numerous specific features of primate genomes that are difficult to understand except as resulting from common ancestry between humans, apes, chimpanzees and other primates.

3. Among the recent discoveries of genome sequencing are several new features of the evolutionary process. Proteins evolved through combinatorial natural genetic engineering events. Cells from different species fused to create a third novel species (symbiogenesis). Unrelated organisms exchanged large chunks of DNA (horizontal DNA transfer). Entire genomes have doubled at critical junctures in evolution. When reigning evolutionary theories were formulated in the 19th and 20th Centuries, non-Mendelian events like these that simultaneously affect multiple traits were unknown or ignored.

4. Experimental research has discovered numerous cell-mediated processes of genome restructuring in all realms of life. These cellular natural genetic engineering capabilities replace accidental events as the real sources of heritable genome change. Since natural genetic engineering is subject to cell regulatory circuits and can be targeted within the genome, random copying errors can no longer be considered a basic feature of evolutionary change.

5. The newly discovered processes of genome change do indeed have the potential to generate "irreducibly complex" new functions. Such complex evolutionary inventions are at the center of the Intelligent Design critique of neo-Darwinian explanations, which are based exclusively on random genetic accidents and natural selection. Doubling the whole genome, distributing copies of mobile elements to different sites, and incorporating similar domains in different proteins provide the necessary raw materials for generating complex interactive networks in cells. A future task for experimental evolution science is to find out how this happens in real time.

6. In order to be truthful, we must acknowledge that certain questions, like the origins of the first living cells, currently have no credible scientific answer. However, given the historical record of science and technology in achieving the "impossible" (e.g., space flight, telecommunications, electronic computation and robotics), there is no reason to believe that unsolved problems will remain without naturalistic explanations indefinitely.

In summary, pro-evolution debaters will enjoy far more success by active engagement with evolution doubters. We need to demonstrate that evolution science is alive and well, as well as show how it is making remarkable progress through the application of molecular technologies -- even though it does not have all the answers.

To the thoughtful scientist whose job is to uncover natural processes, this is surely a better way of advocating the scientific method than dogmatically asserting that we found all the scientific principles we need in centuries past.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 12:15 pm
@wandeljw,
Good post, wandel. However, those proclamations will not dither creationists from their goal to teach their religion whatever way they can.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 12:31 pm
@wandeljw,
while I respect Shapiro as a biologist, Im noit sure where hes been these last 50 years when the genetics revolution hit and spread. The major part of the evolution nstory is that DArwin, got it right despite not knowing a damn thing about genetics.
The majority of publications on evolution these days are not about fossils (although it seems that those are the only kid pleasing stories that we see in the newspapers). His enumerated points are embarrasingly obvious(but very limited in scope). He acts like he just doscovered the wheel.
Oh well, hes on the right side of fact and theory.

I disagree with him because a "theory" depends upon the coalescence of many aspects of data and evidence, not just one. I think if we apply his techniques of arguing with Creationists, we will merely put them to sleep while reinforcing their own beliefs.

Shapiro forgets that DArwins theory is based upon three fundamental areas

inheritance of traits

Time in which these heritable traits are manifest

limited resources with which organisms survive
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Apr, 2012 02:08 pm
@farmerman,
Very good point, farmerman. I believe that Darwin's theory deserves a lot of respect and is basically accurate.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Apr, 2012 10:52 pm
Quote:
We need to emphasize that science operates strictly within the natural world...


As opposed to?
R
T
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2012 03:49 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Quote:
We need to emphasize that science operates strictly within the natural world...

As opposed to?

DIvine intervention that stokes up everything we study. The Evangelical Fundamentalist (Christian) views are that everything in their Bibe is inerrant and therefore, all knowledge bases must derive from it.
They are not too different from the Wahab Muslims and Orthodox Jews on that.
Fortunatey the "wars of science curricula" have not gone in favor of these groups, the more they attempted their invasions, the more our justice system had reminded them of the existence of our US Constitution. However, the doors of dissent have been opened widely as a result so that a strong public school system may, in the future, be a thing of the past as charter schools, home schools, and parochial schools begin to become popular and appear as a "reasonable" alternative to atheistic evolution (and several other things but they arent the subject herein)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2012 04:01 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Think of Newtonian ideas of space, time and gravity as compared to Einsteinian general relativity.


A perfect example of phoney science.

Shapiro must know that most people reading his sophistries cannot think of Newtonian ideas of space, time and gravity as compared to Einsteinian general relativity. So must wande.

What is required here is instruction on Newton and Einstein and an explanation of them and how one differs from the other.

As it is it is merely name dropping. It's rubbish really. All banal and obvious. Padded out with similar examples of phoney science. Such as "As we apply new technologies, such as genome sequencing". Has Shapiro been applying geneome sequencing?

Wilhelm Reich offered a scientific explanation of organic forms deriving from inorganic material. The Bion business. Not that it made any sense to me.

And suggesting, as in "there is no reason to believe", that space flight, telecommunications, electronic computation and robotics are a similar order of problem to the origin of the universe and life from nothing is plainly fatuous. Those activities are a perfectly natural development from Christian intelligence combined with tapping energy from sources other than man or horse power.

He's describing and not explaining. He has too high an opinion of himself I'm afraid. Being appointed to address the great unwashed often goes to people's heads.

Shopping operates strictly within the natural world and treats all theories as subject to criticism, revision and (ultimately) replacement. Often impulsively.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2012 04:52 am
@spendius,
What is on general, life-long Ignore for anti-IDers is the possibility that metaphysics and mysticism are right in some way and that the explanations need to be metaphysical and mystical because it is not possible, at least in polite company, to correctly state why they are right or why correct conclusions need to be expressed incorrectly.

As James Joyce said after blasting religion in the funeral scene--"Still, there must be something in it".

That the factual evidence of the success of Christianity does not suggest this possibility shows the unscientific nature of the sort of platitudes Mr Shapiro trotted out, maybe even cut and pasted, and the close-mindedness of anti-IDers.

A perfectly feasible scientific explanation can be offered for all the Christian dogmas and rules but they may not be.

That's the source of this dispute and anti-IDers take advantage of the may not which the Texas senator wande quoted on "controversial issues" strongly hinted at. He was dismissed as having his head up his arse which is anti-scientific.

Hence the rejection by anti-IDers of the consideration of social consequences which is so inexplicable for evolutionists that it becomes self-evident that they are faking their evolutionism for personal reasons. A massive hoax masquerading as science and engaged in for profit characterised by brilliantine words and obfustication and flattering to the parrots who repeat them without having the slightest idea what any of it means. Speaking in tongues.

If the kids were told the real scientific explanation for compulsory education they would burn the schools down.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Apr, 2012 06:02 am
@spendius,
edgarblythe has just offered this on the Quote of the Day thread--

Quote:
Few men, indeed, are so mad that they do not know when they are doing wrong. But so avid is their pursuit of goods that wrongdoing has become an element of all they do. To protest that fact is idle. Our politics, our business—little and big, our professions, our labor, are smitten in every facet with a corruption occasioned by reckless determination to make not just a reasonable profit but all the profit that can be wrung from every enterprise. Our commonest man, emulating his superiors, forges ahead with a brick on the safety valve of his conscience. Think over your morning paper in that light.
Phillip Wylie


What are we to make of wande's quotes from various newspapers, mostly ones owned by a a small number of giant corporations, in the light of ed's post. "Smitten in every facet".
0 Replies
 
 

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