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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2012 04:33 pm
@spendius,
J eesus Christ. The jackals are gathering.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 2 Apr, 2012 04:34 pm
Well, a jackal's snarl anyway.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Apr, 2012 09:28 am
I wrote this on another thread--

Quote:
In order to understand each other it is necessary to do more than use the same word. We need to employ the word to describe the same species of inner experience and thus to have the experience in common.


As for a word so also for a phrase. So what do we mean by "teaching of evolution".

I feel quite sure that I would have no objections to one extreme of the spectrum of what that expression might mean and I'm equally sure that anti-IDers would strenuously object to teaching the other extreme. But with 50 million kids and thousands of biology teachers, some eager to press the point, that latter extreme would be bound to get an airing and using a scientific justification and any legal challenges to it would bring into the open matters far more sensitive than Noah's Ark and the Tooth Fairy.

I suspect that "teaching evolution" is just an abstract concept useful for beating up Christianity and setting aside all the tiresome inhibitions the Church insists we should suffer and avoiding any difficult questions concerning the social order in the event those inhibitions were completely abolished.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 09:10 am
TENNESSEE UPDATE
Quote:
Tenn. governor says may sign evolution bill
(By Lucas L. Johnson, Associated Press, April 3, 2012)

Tennessee, where the nation's first big legal battle over evolution was fought nearly 90 years ago, is close to enacting a law that critics deride as the "monkey bill" for once again attacking the scientific theory.

The measure passed by the Tennessee General Assembly would protect teachers who allow students to criticize evolution and other scientific theories, such as global warming. Republican Gov. Bill Haslam said this week he would likely sign it into law.

Haslam said the State Board of Education has told him the measure won't affect the state's current scientific curriculum for primary, middle or high school students. Louisiana enacted a similar law in 2008.

"I think the one thing about that bill is this: Nothing about the curriculum of the state of Tennessee will change, and the scientific standards won't change," he said. "So I think some of the discussion about its impact has probably been overblown."

The bill says it will encourage critical thinking by protecting teachers from discipline if they help students critique "scientific weaknesses."

Scientists in Tennessee and the American Association for the Advancement of Science are asking Haslam to veto the bill, saying that evolution is established science that shouldn't be taught as a controversy.

"The Tennessee legislature is doing the unbelievable: attempting to roll the clock back to 1925 by attempting to insert religious beliefs in the teaching of science," three Tennessee scientists wrote in an op-ed column in The Tennessean. The PhDs and members of the National Academy of Sciences — Roger D. Cone and Jon Kaas of Vanderbilt University and Robert G. Webster of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital — argue that the law is unnecessary and likely to provide expensive legal fights and hurt the economy in Tennessee, which is home to Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

The Tennessee Education Association argued that the bill wasn't necessary.

"I think at a time when we're trying to put a focus on science, math, education; to pass something like this really sends a signal that the state is going backward instead of forward," TEA lobbyist Jerry Winters. " ... They're avoiding the real problems in education by dealing with some of these emotional hot-button issues."

The state held the famous Scopes "monkey trial" in 1925 in Dayton, Tenn., and opponents of the legislation say evolution is still under attack in 2012.

The 1925 trial convicted school teacher John Scopes of violating state statute by teaching evolution in biology class and fined him $100. The Tennessee Supreme Court overturned the verdict on a technicality a year later. In 1967, Tennessee's anti-evolution law was revoked.

Scientists believe the legislation — which passed the Senate 24-8 last month and 70-23 in the House last year — could open the door for some religious teachings.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Tennessee on Tuesday sent Haslam a letter asking him to veto the legislation on the grounds that it's unnecessary and "likely to result in significant violations of students' and parents' First Amendment rights."

State ACLU executive director Hedy Weinberg said allowing students to critique "scientific weaknesses" is actually language frequently used by those seeking to introduce non-scientific ideas like creationism and intelligent design into science curriculum.

"No one doubts the value of critical thinking to any serious course of scientific study, but this legislation is not truly aimed at developing students' critical thinking skills," she wrote.

House sponsor Bill Dunn, a Knoxville Republican, said the proposal states that it is "not ... construed to promote religion."

"What the bill says is that as long as you stick to objective scientific facts, then you can bring that into play," said the Knoxville Republican. "So if students start asking questions or if there's debate on it, it's not a one-sided debate. But it is a fair debate, in that it's objective scientific facts that are brought forward."
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 12:25 pm
So if the bill should actually be enacted, it's going to be really interesting to see if these Republican lawmakers defend biology teachers who go full bore forward and expose the "scientific weaknesses" of creationism and intelligent design (which isn't hard, since creationism and intelligent design have no scientific strengths). Or will they just defend creationists.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 02:02 pm
@MontereyJack,
Exactly. As (I said before, this has the potential for cutting in a direction the legislators havent considered.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 02:38 pm
@farmerman,
I am still worried that valuable class time will be wasted if a science teacher is asked to rebut creationist claims such as that the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution. Creationists disguise their propaganda in scientific-sounding nonsense. I am sure that science teachers would not want to waste class time on crap like that.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 02:39 pm
re Farmer:
sure hope it does. Tennessee is really going to look like idiots if "Scopes II" ever goes to trial.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 03:30 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
I am still worried that valuable class time will be wasted if a science teacher is asked to rebut creationist claims such as that the second law of thermodynamics disproves evolution. Creationists disguise their propaganda in scientific-sounding nonsense. I am sure that science teachers would not want to waste class time on crap like that.


We will have to hope that the kids are not subjected to any crap like that wande. First off it is not necessary for you to be worried. Second I don't actually think you are worried. I don't know how many religious people claim that the 2nd law rebuts evolution but it can't be many. I suspect you have invented them in order to post a sentence containing the words "the second law of thermodynamics" in the hope some plonkers reading here with think you know something about science. Which you don't. If you did you would have felt it necessary to respond to my last post. Not responding to it suggests you have turned your head away from a request to say what you mean by teaching evolution and proceeding on here without doing is ignorant and timid. I would define it as seeking the progress of mankind by mechanical breeding and defining all qualities quantitatively. By measurements.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 04:32 pm
As a matter of fact, that's one of the common points the creationistss bring up. Where have you been the last five years? You sure haven't been paying attention here.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 04:39 pm
@wandeljw,
If a science teacher "is asked" to rebut evolution based upon Creationist beliefs, then thats school board deserves to reap its own whirlwind of legal notoreity and quoting on the "Daily SHow". Wouldnt it really be neat , in TEnn, for the plaintiffs of this case to be named Scopes??.

I still would love to see some teacher, full of conviction, try to get in trouble by teaching "Critical thinking" the way it oughta.

Twisted Evil
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Apr, 2012 04:41 pm
@MontereyJack,
wandel knows that Im sure. In the other thread we had long discussions of thermo witth the likes of the denieres like gunga or the confused religionists like spendi.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 05:11 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I still would love to see some teacher, full of conviction, try to get in trouble by teaching "Critical thinking" the way it oughta.


Here we go again!! Words, words and more words.

How ought "critical thinking" be taught without a moral position being involved? Any "ought" involves a morality. It gives us no idea how critical thinking ought to be taught simply be referring to the matter in the way you do. Explain how CT oughta be taught.

Isn't any morality which brings pleasure suspect on the grounds that it is believed because it gives pleasure rather than it being true, or having value, and the more pleasure it brings the more likely that is.

But there is pleasure from the individual point of view and there is pleasure from the social point of view. The Christian morality inhibits individual pleasure in the service of social pleasure and is thus equally selfish but in a different way.

A person may join the military for the pleasure of the pay, the status, the exercise of war games and suchlike and then also seek pleasure by running away when a real enemy comes into view or taking steps to avoid contact with the shooting enemy. What would be your reason for condemning an individual pleasure seeker who did run away when the shooting started if you discount the social pleasure in the duty to protect the social system because of the risk of unpleasure? Which is exactly what you do in relation to the pleasure of setting aside the Christian inhibitions from an individual point of view and discounting the collective pleasure.

You need to affirm the value of such setting aside when practiced by all individuals and not just your own individual position. And to provide a legal framework for such a situation.

Your timidity on social consequences is not going away simply because you put them on Ignore. Defend amorality or shut up.



0 Replies
 
sumonht1990
 
  0  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 05:49 am
@kuvasz,
Discussions as to particular details of national selection are done constantly,
the world is not 1000 years old demands one to understand geology and physics ,chemistry; to understand natural selection one is demanded to understand gene theory and statistics.Time goes come evolution.

It helped destroy that nation's social structure as a result of its policies .But what you want to say.....?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 08:05 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
As a matter of fact, that's one of the common points the creationistss bring up. Where have you been the last five years? You sure haven't been paying attention here.


Show me where it has been brought up on here will you please?

I can't answer for some creationists you have found convenient for your position. Some creationists think Tiamat excreted the universe. And that makes sense looked at in a certain way. That knowledge is a human faculty and humans come from the belly vessel of the Goddess.

There is no universe if there are no human beings. Or natural selection. Or America. America is a human concept.

Explain how America exists scientifically. How old is America as a mental construction. It doesn't exist without humans to say it does.

And entropy will do for America quicker than it takes a fin to morph into a wing. Considerably quicker.

You should widen your reading Jack. And your social circle.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 08:59 am
@spendius,
Don't try getting Science out on me Jack. You're just using Science to play the field.

It just won't do that the large majorities in the Tenn senate and congress are talking crap, bullshit and have their head up their arses. It's a ridiculous proposition. It's not even a debate point. It means nothing.

Christianity sacrificies carnality for the general good. Irreligion has no reason to not become Epicurian and sacrifice the general good to its carnalities. All 310 million of you.

And the Epicurian has to rely on the rabble--the slaves--to provide the facilities for the satisfaction of the carnalities.

One might even hypothesise that the bankers, pre 1988, had been desperately trying to balance the books of our inscrutable business plan which is, as Bob Dylan so brilliantly put it, to go all the way until the wheels fall off and burn. What else with mass Epicurianism on a rising curve egged on by Madison Avenue and its diffused tendrils which are, in a way, not unlike the tendrils of a delicate sea creature which we cannot quite see the ends of as they wave about in the shallows soaking up the sun's rays.

Not that I wish to embark on a discourse concerning the organic nature of society. Or a Culture. Societies are sub-divisions of Cultures. I was merely comparing the irreducible complexity at the tip of the tendrils of a flagella, say, with a similar irreducible complexity at the furthest outposts of Madison Avenue. Get either into focus in a microscope and it ceases to be in a natural state.

I think we can "go on and on", in Mrs Thatcher's famous words, and reach the sunny uplands but I am rather worried about how boring the sunny uplands might be.



0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 09:42 am
Quote:
Gov. Bill Haslam should veto 'Monkey Bill'
(Hedy Weinberg, Opinion Essay, KnoxNews.com, April 5, 2012)

Tennessee is dangerously close to enacting a law that would gut science education in public schools. The "Monkey Bill" sailed through the Legislature and is now on Gov. Bill Haslam's desk awaiting his review. The bill is adapted from a template offered by the conservative, Seattle-based Discovery Institute, which promotes intelligent design. As a force for moderation, Haslam should veto this legislation.

Under the pretext of fostering critical thinking, this legislation states that teachers must be allowed to discuss "weaknesses" in scientific theories such as evolution and other scientific subjects that "cause debate and disputation" — calling their validity into question.

No one doubts the value of critical thinking to any serious course of scientific study, but this legislation seeks to subvert scientific principle to religious ideology by granting legal cover to teachers who wish to dress up religious beliefs on the origin of life as pseudo-science. Terms such as "strengths and weaknesses" and "critical thinking" are frequently used by those seeking to introduce nonscientific ideas such as creationism and intelligent design into the science curriculum.

Prestigious scientific and educational organizations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the National Earth Science Teachers Association and the Tennessee Science Teachers Association, agree that there is no scientific controversy regarding the theory of evolution, only a political controversy that does not belong in the science classroom.

Tennessee has long been involved in a struggle about teaching science and religion in public schools. Eighty-seven years ago, on March 13, 1925, the Tennessee General Assembly passed the Butler Act, making it unlawful to teach evolution. In the well-known "Scopes Monkey Trial" that followed, American Civil Liberties Union volunteer attorney Clarence Darrow represented high school teacher John Scopes when he violated the Butler Act. The anti-evolutionists won and the Butler Act remained in place until repealed in 1967.

Six years later, the state Legislature passed a statute barring public school use of any textbook teaching the theory of evolution unless it was "not represented to be scientific fact'' and equal time was devoted to creationism. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit flatly rejected the law, holding that it was "obviously in violation of the First Amendment." Since then, federal courts have been clear that efforts to inject religious beliefs regarding the origin of life into public school science curricula are unconstitutional no matter what form they may take.

By allowing teachers to deviate from the established science curriculum, we take the risk that our students will be unprepared for advanced college work and at a disadvantage in our increasingly global economy. Tennessee may also be less appealing to employers offering science-based jobs. This bill could have serious consequences for the future well-being of our children and our economy and our state overall.

This legislation is the latest line of attack against evolution in a long-standing campaign waged by certain religious interests to promote creationism and intelligent design in Tennessee public schools. As the Supreme Court has stated, families "entrust public schools with the education of their children, but condition their trust on the understanding that the classroom will not purposely be used to advance religious views that may conflict with the private beliefs of the student and his or her family." This legislation represents a betrayal of that trust and, accordingly, Haslam must veto it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 11:25 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Prestigious scientific and educational organizations, including the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Institute of Biological Sciences, the National Earth Science Teachers Association and the Tennessee Science Teachers Association, agree that there is no scientific controversy regarding the theory of evolution, only a political controversy that does not belong in the science classroom.


They can't be that prestigious if they don't know that there is scientific controversy about the theory of evolution. Asserting that there is no scientific controversy about the theory of evolution is as valueless as asserting how prestigious they are.

Technically it concerns the antithesis between Darwin reading his theory into nature and Goethe reading the destiny theory out of nature. As a member of the industrialist class Darwin would automatically think reading theories into the workers was the way forward. The eureka of the first theory being the connecting of evolution from unknown cause to selective breeding by pigeon fanciers and farmers. Artificial selection. Now all the railway stations, public squares and buildings are covered in pigeon ****.

So old Charlie says "whoopee!! I've got it. I've solved the great puzzle". Evolution by artificial selection. Bingo. Bee in the bonnet ****. Obsession. But Nature is not artificial. (Not quite yet anyway).

Struggle for existence comes out of Malthus. Eureka!! Connect up struggle for existence with evolution by artificial selection which leads to evolution by natural selection. And fits well with the ideas of the industrial class in the 19th century in northern England concerning upward progress and also with our Faustian culture's prime symbol.

I read somewhere that these two Eureka moments were a year apart in Darwin's mind.

It makes a lot of sense if it is assumed, believed one might say, that progress is taking place which was easy to do for a man in Darwin's position.

To become famous he reads his theory onto Nature and piles up an unnecessary amount of evidence to prove he is reading Nature as it actually is. Goethe was an artist and allowed Nature to reveal herself to him in her own good time.

Darwin desperately wanted Nature to be like he said it was. Which doesn't mean it isn't as he said because of that of course. What he wanted has nothing to do with Nature. His theory simply replaced the word Creator with the word Evolution and the unifying formula in each case is tautological. And from each flows a way of life.

And to read one own theories onto Nature is judgemental and all Darwinists are judgemental and Jesus was not judgemental. Except when he was pissed.

Anti-IDers are pretty damn jusgemental. So the way of life of the evolutionists is easy to predict.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 11:38 am
@wandeljw,
Is the Knox News the Knoxville News Sentinel because if it is it is owned by the E.W.Scripps Company which is no stranger to this thread despite its many disguises.

Quote:
By allowing teachers to deviate from the established science curriculum, we take the risk that our students will be unprepared for advanced college work and at a disadvantage in our increasingly global economy. Tennessee may also be less appealing to employers offering science-based jobs. This bill could have serious consequences for the future well-being of our children and our economy and our state overall.


That's a bit of a bald as brass mixture. It's another version of reading your own ideas onto 310 million Americans. It's also complete rubbish as it wouldn't stand up to 5 minutes critical analysis. It's pure foam from the mouth. It's clairvoyant. It second guesses every ****** who can be second guessed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Apr, 2012 02:11 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Is the Knox News the Knoxville News Sentinel because if it is it is owned by the E.W.Scripps Company which is no stranger to this thread despite its many disguises.
Pardon me while I PM someone who actually gives a ****.
 

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