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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:15 am
@spendius,
appenerntly you havent googled anything further about NCSE in the interim so I still find you guilty of not knowing of what you speak.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:16 am
@spendius,
even Joyce admitted that he was a fan of neologisms and silly ones at that.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:16 am
@spendius,
The scientific method, on its cutting edge I mean, necessitates the making of guesses. Hypotheses if you prefer. I know you like longer and more important sounding words.

Hypotheses are contradicted, peer-reviewed, another of your favourite expressions, by empirical evidence and not by declarations that they are bullshit. Until they are contradicted they stand. And my hypothesis that the NCSE is an inchoate Kremlin has not been contradicted.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:19 am
@spendius,
I think youve got the scientific method all ass backward there spendi. Its not up to the reader or peer reviewer to do anything but review the evidence presented. SO far, all your "hypothses" are evidence-free (another of my favorites)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:21 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
appenerntly you havent googled anything further about NCSE in the interim so I still find you guilty of not knowing of what you speak.


What else can I expect from someone with a hanging judge avvie?

I copped you recently fm suggesting that someone might expect a visit from some un-named persons. Early morning one from the tone.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:24 am
Quote:
The new anti-science assault on US schools
(Katherine Stewart, The Guardian, 12 February 2012)

You might have thought it was all over after the 2005 decision by the US district court of Middle Pennsylvania, which ruled in the case of the Dover Area schools that teaching intelligent design is unconstitutional. You might have guessed that they wouldn't come back after the 1987 US supreme court decision in Edwards v Aguillard, which deemed the teaching of creationism in Louisiana schools unconstitutional. Or maybe you figured that the opponents of evolution had their Waterloo in the 1925 Scopes "monkey" trial in Tennessee.

They are back. There are six bills aimed at undermining the teaching of evolution before state legislatures this year: two each in New Hampshire and Missouri, one each in Indiana and Oklahoma. And it's only February.

For the most part, the authors of these bills are singing a song we've heard before. Jerry Bergevin, the Republican sponsor of one of the New Hampshire bills, says of evolution that "It's a worldview and it's godless." He blames the teaching of evolution for Nazism and Columbine. Josh Brecheen, the sponsor of the Oklahoma bill, wants to stop the teaching of "the religion of evolution." These legislators, and their colleagues in Missouri and Indiana, trot out the hoary line that evolution is "just a theory" and that real science means saying that every point of view is just as good as any other.

Most of these bills aren't likely to get anywhere. The Indiana bill, which specifically proposes the teaching of "creation science", so obviously falls foul of the supreme court's 1987 ruling that it's hard to imagine it getting out of committee. The same could be said for the Missouri bill, which calls for the "equal treatment" of "biological evolution and biological intelligent design".

Still, it's worth asking: why is this happening now? Well, in part, it's just that anti-evolution bills are an indicator of the theological temperature in state houses, and there is no question that the temperature has been rising. New Hampshire, Indiana, Oklahoma, and Missouri turned deeper shades of red in the 2010 elections, as did the US Congress.

But there are a couple of new twists that make this same-old story more interesting than usual. One has to do with the temperature in a less metaphorical sense. The Oklahoma bill isn't properly speaking just an "anti-evolution" bill; it is just as opposed to the "theory" of "global warming". A bill pending in Tennessee likewise targets "global warming" alongside "biological evolution". These and other bills aim their rhetoric at "scientific controversies" in plural, and one of the New Hampshire bills does not even bother to specify which controversies it has in mind.

The convergence here is, to some degree, cultural. It just so happens that the people who don't like evolution are often the same ones who don't want to hear about climate change. It is also the case that the rhetoric of the two struggles is remarkably similar – everything is a "theory", and we should "teach the controversy". But we also cannot overlook the fact is that there is a lot more money at stake in the climate science debate than in the evolution wars. Match those resources with the passions aroused by evolution, and we may have a new force to be reckoned with in the classroom.

The other significant twist has to do with the fact that the new anti-evolution – make that anti-science – bills are emerging in the context of the most vigorous assault on public education in recent history. In Oklahoma, for example, while Senator Brecheen fights the forces of evolution and materialism, the funding for schools is being cut, educational attainments are falling, and conservative leaders are agitating for school voucher systems, which, in the name of "choice", would divert money from public schools to private schools – many of them religious. The sponsor of Indiana's anti-science bill, Dennis Kruse, who happens to be chairman of the Senate education committee, is also fighting the two battles at once.

The Heartland Institute – which has received funding in the past from oil companies and is a leading source of climate science skepticism – also lobbies strongly for school vouchers and other forms of "school transformation" that are broadly aimed at undermining the current public school system. The Discovery Institute – a leading voice for intelligent design – has indicated its support of exactly the same "school reform" initiatives.

If you can't shut down the science, the new science-deniers appear to be saying, you should shut down the schools. It would be a shame if they succeeded in replacing the teaching of science with indoctrination. It would be worse if they were to close the public school house doors altogether.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:42 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I think youve got the scientific method all ass backward there spendi. Its not up to the reader or peer reviewer to do anything but review the evidence presented. SO far, all your "hypothses" are evidence-free (another of my favorites)


The scientific method, on the occasions I have brought it to bear, has produced effects which are not conducive to social bonhomie.

My guesses are not evidence free. They are based observations on human nature both directly and indirectly through those writers I trust.

I am quite confident that the vast majority of people would behave in exactly the same way that those in the NCSE do if they had their feet under the table there. Enjoying the benefits of the non-profits.

We have many similar organisations here. Basically they don't allow flak but there's a token amount of it of the sort they can easily deal with to prove they can take flak. They protect themselves from flak they can't deal with.

I'm not saying the NCSE is secretive. Or sinister. But I think that the more powerful it became it would be heading in those directions.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:47 am
@spendius,
I'm sure you regret all the medical science that have improved health care.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:53 am
@wandeljw,
Interesting article wande.

Quote:
But we also cannot overlook the fact is that there is a lot more money at stake in the climate science debate than in the evolution wars.


I don't agree with that except possibly in the short term. There's a lot more money at stake in the evolution debate, (monkey v divine being), in the long run.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:54 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I'm sure you regret all the medical science that have improved health care.


Try not to be so ******* silly ci.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 10:59 am
@spendius,
You wrote,
Quote:
The scientific method, on the occasions I have brought it to bear, has produced effects which are not conducive to social bonhomie.

My guesses are not evidence free. They are based observations on human nature both directly and indirectly through those writers I trust.


You have not done any such thing; your observations are only biases against science, and you have claimed it has damaged society.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 11:56 am
@wandeljw,
Anti-Science really is the core argument playing out beneath the surface of all these bills. Even Michael Behe, in the Dover Trial, tried to redefine science to eliminate naturalism, resulting in the inclusion of Astrology within his definition of Science.

Their arguments against evolution will always fail under analysis, so the only viable path for challenge is down at the philosophical level and is necessarily focused on the definition of science itself.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 12:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You have not done any such thing; your observations are only biases against science, and you have claimed it has damaged society.


Utter desperate bullshit. I have no bias against science. I'm a scientist. I have a bias against what some people do with it. And might do with it if allowed to run away with the idea that their arseholes have exclusive rights to have the sun shine out of them.

Science can't damage anything. It's a concept. The disinterested pursuit of knowledge running head on into the interested pursuit of knowledge. The latter can easily be said to have damaged society if society is defined in a certain way.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 12:21 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Anti-Science really is the core argument playing out beneath the surface of all these bills.


Rubbish. There's no anti-Science anywhere near the matter.

But ros won't know what the Indiana economy is based upon because he has me on Ignore so won't have seen my quote on it. If he had he would know what an utterly, butterly silly fatuity his cheap and easy remark is. If he said it in the Indiana legislature he would be laughed to scorn.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 12:37 pm
@wandeljw,
"Bundling" anthropogenic climate change with evolution denial and scoping some legislation based upon the bundle is dumb. The argument in Climate Change is whether it is man-induced , not whether it exists. There is good data on both sides of that one and its difficult to gain a consensus when there are probably just as many scientists (and a majority of earth scientists) who are skeptical about anthro-CC, whereas the evidence for nat selection is overwhelming and as Ernst Mayr said before he died,
"We should drop the concept of "theory" for Evolution. It is undeniably a fact"
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 01:14 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
"Bundling" anthropogenic climate change with evolution denial and scoping some legislation based upon the bundle is dumb.
Unfortunately it may be effective, even though it's dumb (for the reason you mentioned).

In a purely logical analysis the differences between these two issues would be obvious, but in a system (political and social) dominated by idiots and ideologues, conflating the underlying discussions of two "theories" which seem similar, but are not, may be a compelling approach.

farmerman wrote:
The argument in Climate Change is whether it is man-induced , not whether it exists.
Even though this statement seems perfectly obvious to me, I don't actually think that the general population is even aware of this. As evidence of this, I submit the long running A2K thread on Climate Change in which only a tiny fraction of people even acknowledge the distinction drawn here (and which we've tried to convey many times). The basic argument still rages over whether it's happening, not how much of it is man-made.

farmerman wrote:
the evidence for nat selection is overwhelming and as Ernst Mayr said before he died,"We should drop the concept of "theory" for Evolution. It is undeniably a fact"
This is another obvious fact, but I think there are a lot of people who are simply in denial of this reality. Which again reminds me that it is not logic which is at work in these debates, it's emotion, and the people who represent science need to walk a fine line in the debate of retaining scientific accuracy, but communicating (as often as possible) in short powerful statements designed to counteract the similar style of commentary from the other side.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 02:49 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Even though this statement seems perfectly obvious to me, I don't actually think that the general population is even aware of this. As evidence of this, I submit the long running A2K thread on Climate Change in which only a tiny fraction of people even acknowledge the distinction drawn here (and which we've tried to convey many times). The basic argument still rages over whether it's happening, not how much of it is man-made.


It's perfectly obvious to everybody and the distinction was often made on the thread mentioned. I did so a number of times and so did others.

What is also obvious is ros's contempt for his fellow citizens.

"dominated by idiots and ideologues" for example. And how on earth does an evolutionist (so called) denigrate domination.

And how patronising is " (and which we've tried to convey many times)". You need to look down your nose to say that properly.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 02:51 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Which again reminds me that it is not logic which is at work in these debates, it's emotion, and the people who represent science need to walk a fine line in the debate of retaining scientific accuracy, but communicating (as often as possible) in short powerful statements designed to counteract the similar style of commentary from the other side.


Notice the marked absence of any "short powerful statements".
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 04:42 pm
@farmerman,
To clarify, it was intended to be 'your relativism is of semantical repercussions', yet there may have been syntactical repercussions in my previous assertion.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Feb, 2012 04:44 pm
@rosborne979,
The interesting thing is, no matter how the Supreme Court is constituted (Eg, I know that Roberts and Alito have been active in the NCSE outreach on behalf of their former offices), it cannot escape its duty and would, no doubt underpin the previous decisions of USSC and even the Fed District Courts , since Jones reffered to Aguillard, Epperson, and Lemon (of course, the Supremes may see some procedural issue in the Jones decision of Dover that we arent aware of). However, , should the whole thing come to court, the Fundies had better realize that they better be damned compelling. SOmething that, since Epperson , they havent been able to accomplish. Spendi feels that he could handle the court. Ill give 40 to 1 he gets a contempt citation in the first day

SO, "Bundling" the climate change issue with evolution wpouldnt work out to anyones liking, neither the "man -induced CC proponents" nor the "sunspot,/ axial wobble theory " would prevail in such a decision. I suppose the SUpremes could bifurcate their decisions , I dont know that such a bundle would be a big deal to the court. Somebody ask Joe , Tico, or Dave ( he was a Constitutional Lawyer)
 

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