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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 05:44 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I merely asked you do you have any evidence that T rex DNA has been found anywhere?
You merely asked ??? What a lovely person you are in your own pathetic little mind. Admit to having a drinking problem just like Grant and seek help about that chip on your shoulder. Delaying getting help will only make things worse for you.
Quote:


In your case , youve been using pseudo scientific terms without knowing what the hell youre even talking about.
Are you referring to your pathetic efforts to be knowledgable about Polynesian boat building ?

Quote:
In that youre a pupil of spendi whose been lying for several years that hes a scientist (he said hes a chemist and not a pharmacist).That was a baldface lie cause he doesnt even recognize the simplest pf chem concepts that were thrown at him by another poster. So, I used that definition of Bricmont to decide to ignore him.
There is no end of your troubles with people is there ? Of course you ignore others if they dont go Oohhh and AAhhhh at how clever you think you are.

Quote:
tried being nice and reasonable but your constant insults at me
Do you really believe you are a victim ?? Shall we pity you ? You cant talk to anyone without your feelings of inferiority turning into bile. Any students asking for help with homework you can bully and strut in front of ? You know, like how you get a kick failing your own students...
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 05:48 pm
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Would that I could give your post a dozen thumbs up.
Just kiss his wounded arse instead.

You went from being a supporter of the death penalty to being against it because your brother was murdered. Man up. You will die. That can not be prevented even if you use every means at your disposal to avoid it. That was the basis of our little falling out. Weak nervous nellies like you just piss me off big time.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 06:14 pm
@edgarblythe,
Would that I could give your posts 50,000 thumbs up ed. Encouraging people to read them should do wonders for anti-ID. The more the merrier.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 06:18 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
In that youre a pupil of spendi


Why does Io being somewhat on the same side as me make him a "pupil" of mine and wande, ci., ros and Setanta being up your tutu not make them a pupil of your's. Or you of one of them. Though how you would choose which one I can't imagine.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 22 Feb, 2011 06:35 pm
@spendius,
Because they are two faced hypocritical little dicks hoping for any recognition they may help them live with themselves. Setanta, farmeman and Ed have feelings of inferiority/fear and rather then brag they hope to tear others down so they look taller by comparison.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 04:39 am
Heres an article re the ORigins of Life Conference held this past week

Quote:
A Romp Into Theories of the Cradle of Life
By DENNIS OVERBYE
Published: February 21, 2011
TEMPE, Ariz. — We’re not in the Garden of Eden anymore.

» Darwin speculated that life began in a warm pond on the primordial Earth. Lately other scientists have suggested that the magic joining of molecules that could go on replicating might have happened in an undersea hot spring, on another planet or inside an asteroid. Some astronomers wonder if it could be happening right now underneath the ice of Europa or in the methane seas of Titan.

Two dozen chemists, geologists, biologists, planetary scientists and physicists gathered here recently to ponder where and what Eden might have been. Over a long weekend they plastered the screen in their conference room with intricate chemical diagrams through which electrons bounced in a series of interactions like marbles rattling up and down and over bridges through one of those child’s toys, transferring energy, taking care of the business of nascent life. The names of elements and molecules tripped off chemists’ tongues as if they were the eccentric relatives who show up at Thanksgiving every year.

They charted the fall of meteorites and the rise of oxygen on the early Earth and evidence in old rocks that life was here as long as 3.5 billion years ago. The planet is only a billion years older, but estimates vary on when it became habitable.

In front of a 2,400-member audience one night they debated the definition of life — “anything highly statistically improbable, but in a particular direction,” in the words of Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist at Oxford. Or, they wondered if it could be defined at all in the absence of a second example to the Earth’s biosphere — a web of interdependence all based on DNA.

Hence the quest for extraterrestrial examples is more than a sentimental use of NASA’s dollars. “Let’s go look for it,” said Chris McKay, a planetary scientist at NASA’s Ames Research Laboratory in Mountain View, Calif., who is involved with the Mars Science Laboratory, which will be launched in November.

The rapid appearance of complex life in some accounts — “like Athena springing from the head of Zeus,” in the words of Dr. McKay — has rekindled interest recently in a theory fancied by Francis Crick, one of the discoverers of the double helix, that life originated elsewhere and floated here through space. These days the favorite candidate for such an extraterrestrial cradle is Mars, which was once a water world. Perhaps, some think, its microbes hitched a ride to Earth on asteroids — unless, of course, the microbes went the other way and what’s to be found on Mars are the dead remains of long-lost cousins of Earth.

“We’ve crashed more space probes on Mars than anywhere else — it’s that interesting,” Dr. McKay said.

The conference was sponsored by the Origins Project at Arizona State University in an effort to get people together who don’t normally talk to each other, said Lawrence Krauss, a physicist who helped organize the meeting.

Talk is indeed hard across disciplines and geological ages. John Sutherland, a biochemist at Cambridge University in England, said geologists and astronomers were more interested in talking and speculating about the origin of life than chemists were, even though it is basically a problem of “nitty-gritty chemistry.”

The reason, he explained, is that “chemists know how hard it is.”

The modern version of the Garden of Eden goes by the name of RNA world, after the molecule ribonucleic acid, which plays Robin to DNA’s Batman today, but is now thought have preceded it on the biological scene. RNA is more versatile, being able not only to store information, like DNA, but also to use that information to catalyze reactions, a job now performed by proteins. That solved a sort of chicken-and-egg problem about which ability came first into the world. The answer is that RNA could be both.

“If you want to think of it that way, life is a very simple process,” said Sidney Altman, who shared a Nobel Prize in 1989 for showing that RNA had these dual abilities. “It uses energy, it sustains itself and it replicates.”

One lesson of the meeting was how finicky are the chemical reactions needed for carrying out these simple-sounding functions. “There might be a reason why amino acids and nucleotides are the way they are,” Dr. Krauss said.

What looks complicated to us might not look so complicated to a piece of a carbon molecule awaiting integration into life’s dance. “Complexity is in the eye of the beholder,” said Dr. Sutherland, who after 10 years of trying different recipes succeeded in synthesizing one of the four nucleotides that make up RNA in a jar in his lab.

With the right mixture and conditions, complicated-looking molecules can assemble themselves without help. “When everything is in the pot,” he said, “the chemistry to make RNA is easier.”

Dr. Sutherland’s results were hailed as a triumph for the RNA world idea, but there is much work to be done, said Steve Benner, who constructs artificial DNA at the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution, in Florida. Nobody knows whether Dr. Sutherland’s recipe would work on the early Earth, he said. Moreover, even if RNA did appear naturally, the odds that it would happen in the right sequence to drive Darwinian evolution seem small.

“Other than that,” Dr. Benner said, “the RNA world is a great idea for origin of life.”

Some others, including astronomers and geologists, have another view of biological inevitability. Life is a natural consequence of geology, said Everett Shock, a geophysicist at Arizona State. “Most of what life is doing is using chemical energy,” Dr. Shock said, and that energy is available in places like undersea volcanic vents where life, he calculated, acts as a catalyst to dissipate heat from the Earth. In what he called “a sweet deal,” life releases energy rather than consuming it, making it easy from a thermodynamic standpoint.

“Biosynthesis is profitable — it has to be; they live there,” said Dr. Shock, referring to microbes in undersea vents.

Some scientists say we won’t really understand life until we can make it ourselves.

On the last day of the conference, J. Craig Venter, the genome decoding entrepreneur and president of the J. Craig Venter Institute, described his adventures trying to create an organism with a computer for a parent.

Using mail-order snippets of DNA, Dr. Venter and his colleagues stitched together the million-letter genetic code of a bacterium of a goat parasite last year and inserted it into another bacterium’s cell, where it took over, churning out blue-stained copies of itself. Dr. Venter advertised his genome as the wave of future migration to the stars. Send a kit of chemicals and a digitized genome across space.

“We’ll create panspermia if it didn’t already exist,” he said.

The new genome included what Dr. Venter called a watermark. Along with the names of the researchers were three quotations, from the author James Joyce; Robert Oppenheimer, who directed the building of the atomic bomb; and the Caltech physicist Richard Feynman: “What I cannot build, I do not understand.”

When the news came out, last year, Dr. Venter said, the James Joyce estate called up and threatened to sue, claiming that Joyce’s copyright had been violated. To date there has been no lawsuit.

Then Caltech called up and complained that Dr. Venter’s genome was misquoting Feynman. The institute sent a photograph of an old blackboard on which Feynman had written, “What I cannot create, I do not understand.”

And so his genome is now in the process of acquiring its first, non-Darwinian mutation.

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 04:43 am
@farmerman,
Fascinatin' stuff, Buddy. I find the moons of Saturn and Jupiter an alluring notion--unfortunately, i can't afford the price of admission. (Don't have a few billion in spare cash lying around, do you?)
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 05:22 am
@Setanta,
There are brawling packets of terrestrialists v extra terrestrialists in this effort,Ill wait for the movie.
Venter always manages to come up with creative solutions. He merely changes the rules .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 05:42 am
@farmerman,
****!!. Just when you thought it was safe to go to Tennessee for barbecue again, this happens

Quote:
A second antievolution bill in Tennessee
February 19th, 2011
Senate Bill 893 (PDF), filed in the Tennessee Senate on February 16, 2011, is the seventh antievolution bill introduced in a state legislature in 2011, and the second introduced in Tennessee. The bill would, if enacted, require state and local educational authorities to "assist teachers to find effective ways to present the science curriculum as it addresses scientific controversies" and permit teachers to "help students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of existing scientific theories covered in the course being taught." The only examples provided of "controversial" theories are "biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning." The sole sponsor of SB 893 is Bo Watson (R-District 11). SB 893 is identical to HB 368, which was introduced in the Tennessee House of Representatives on February 9, 2011, and is scheduled for a hearing in a subcommittee of the House Education Committee on February 23, 2011.



Source NCSE newsletter


Tennessee is famous for its Bo's and Bubba's. I wonder of they will also provide the scientifc strengths and weaknesses of "Snake Handling by Holy Rollers"
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 05:46 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:

Two dozen chemists, geologists, biologists, planetary scientists and physicists gathered here recently ....a 2,400-member audience one night they debated the definition of life — “anything highly statistically improbable, but in a particular direction,”


Not a single mathematician in that group? There's a mathematical model of protein folding as a quantum process; it's not an Arrhenius relationship:
http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/arxiv/26421/?ref=rss
Quote:
...a relatively small protein of only 100 amino acids can take some 10^100 different configurations. If it tried these shapes at the rate of 100 billion a second, it would take longer than the age of the universe to find the correct one. Just how these molecules do the job in nanoseconds, nobody knows...... the shape could change by quantum transition, meaning that the protein could 'jump' from one shape to another without necessarily forming the shapes in between.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 06:22 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:
A second antievolution bill in Tennessee
... examples provided of "controversial" theories are "biological evolution, the chemical origins of life, global warming, and human cloning."


The first 2 items can be explained in mathematical modeling terms (see previous post). The third has plenty to recommend it. On the 4th, a question: isn't it the case that cells stop dividing after about 140 years from the birth of the original organism? All clones will die whenever that cell age is reached.

Dolly the sheep at her demise had a biological age way beyond her age in years. See if that works item by item before getting upset about evolution per se.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 06:24 am
@High Seas,
protein folding presumes the pre-existence of a protein. These guys were into cell wall construction and the origins of replication, stuff like that
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 06:26 am
@High Seas,
The Inner Mongolian University??
Im not familiar with them.

ANYWAY, protein folding presumes the preexistence of a polypeptide-polymer. The guys in Az were more concerned with constructing a cell wall or origins of repiration, Stuff like that.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 06:26 am
@farmerman,
Yes, I understand that, but if you can model at least one part of the process in quantum transition terms it seems to me that's a useful contribution.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 06:29 am
@farmerman,
They're all Chinese, far as I could figure out. Had to look it up myself, it looks legit - at least the mathematical modeling part.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 07:01 am
@High Seas,
PS This is a link to the protein-folding article: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1102/1102.3748.pdf
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 08:12 am
@farmerman,
"Romp" is the right word. A "long weekend" jamboree in which the highlights for the leading participants are far superior to the highlights for the punters which are ridiculous speeches and a few handouts.

Quote:
Over a long weekend they plastered the screen in their conference room with intricate chemical diagrams through which electrons bounced in a series of interactions like marbles rattling up and down and over bridges through one of those child’s toys, transferring energy, taking care of the business of nascent life.


That's piss taking.

How can it be said that something is "statistically improbable" that happened. It might be a certainty. By talking about Europa and Titan it is implied that it is certain. Little men sat in skid-marked underpants seriously discussing "life" is a complete idiocy.

I suppose that if I was involved, whatever that means, in the Mars Science Laboratory I would say "lets go look for it". The riot squad are restless, they need somewhere to go." (Forget Libya though).

If life did come from Mars how did it get to Mars? They were discussing origins of life weren't they? What sort of an answer is Mars to such a question to an audience with an average IQ of 101.

I can't read anymore of that ****. It's drivel. It's a gig.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 08:19 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
I wonder of they will also provide the scientifc strengths and weaknesses of "Snake Handling by Holy Rollers"


Snakes are not a social problem. People are. People handling is what Holy Rollers do. The silly point is off topic and trolling.

Snakes have natural checks on their sexual behaviour. Is fm implying that people should be subject to the same thing, as Malthus said they were.

It must have been one hell of a scientific education fm has been through.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 08:25 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
There's a mathematical model of protein folding as a quantum process; it's not an Arrhenius relationship:


Will you explain that HS? Glittering words take us nowhere. They are cheap versions of bookcase posturing.

Quote:
meaning that the protein could 'jump' from one shape to another without necessarily forming the shapes in between.


I wish I could do that.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Feb, 2011 08:27 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
The first 2 items can be explained in mathematical modeling terms (see previous post).


I've seen the previous post and am no wiser.
0 Replies
 
 

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