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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 04:43 pm
@spendius,
I see it as the truth about someone who is not able to give answers to questions that can not be tested.
I could bring up neurophilosophy, psychology and anthropology then go into a indepth discussion about how the our brains have for thousands++ years been able to make up all kinds of things!

What came first logical reasoning or superstition and make believe?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 04:48 pm
@spendius,
Quote:

You simply asserted "damage" and by doing so implied that everyone with a Christian education is damaged.

How on earth did you get that from my statement? Unless you were alleging that almost all people are damaged by being taught evolution there is no way for my more to mean all.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 06:21 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
So by indulging in rationalization as a way to instruct students in real science, we simply insult their intelligence.


It's obviously news to ros, possibly he is unique in this one regard, that nobody ever went broke insulting people's intelligence. Whether the corollary is true, that flattering people's intelligence is the way to go broke, I don't know for sure, but I can easily imagine that it might very well be.

So you may all take it as read that ros is flattering your intelligence.

He's obviously insulting mine.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 06:26 pm
@parados,
I never said anybody was damaged. I'm looking for a definition of "damaged" not conditioned by which side anyone is on. An objective definition.

Is that not allowed on a science thread?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 07:07 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
He teaches psychology, not natural science.
Where are your comments on those who teach natural science commenting on the psychology of religion ? You arent biased, are you ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 07:17 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Why don't you consider yourself to be a atheist?


First, I regard the average atheist as an egotistical go nowhere fool. They live, they die, and they understood very little in the process. Religious nutters I put in the same category. Unfortunately, there are a lot of the nutters trying to change science with wishful thinking. That aint gonna happen. There are a lot of mad scientists trying to tell nutters they are wrong to believe in God. That aint gonna happen.

Second, there is a middle ground. Science, as in the big bang and multi-verses, is inventing new ways to justify God. Truly religious people are using religion to justify science. Agnostics cautiously await further evidence.

Third, I KNOW neither side can prove God exists or doesnt exist. Science can not even disprove that somewhere out there is a swamp inhabited by intelligent mattresses. Religion can not prove God exists and to try to do so requires a loss of faith.

Fourth, anyone who says they are agnostic thinks the proof of God existing or not simply does not exist. A reasonable mind would be agnostic. An atheist believes God does not exist but why would you have that belief if it cant be proven ? Wouldnt it be more correct logically to be agnostic ?
0 Replies
 
tenderfoot
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 08:14 pm
Ionarse.

Thousands of gods have come and gone in the past... None of the people who believed there was a god (their one ) thought or believed that their god would disappear What makes you think there is whatever... I can assure you , when you die your supposed whatever will die with you.. "Why"you ask, cause of all the old whatevers that have disappeared in the past.... Or to cover myself "that's what I believe".
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Feb, 2011 08:18 pm
@tenderfoot,
Tenderarse

You must have you eyes painted on. I do not believe in God. Can you read that or not ?

As for the rest of your post, I don't have a gobbledygook translation book. Is there someone there who can write english ?
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 08:58 am
@Ionus,
Is this your belief about all of what you wrote or is this how catholics see things or both?

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Are the Catholics teaching that science is the light, truth and the way, as long as it does not contradict what the bible says?
No. They are teaching that the Bible has truth, which is different from facts. There are learning points in the Bible and the greatest emphasis by a long way should be placed on the New Testament rather then the Old which is the part atheists love to attack.

Science is taught as the way of the physical reality, which in general should not be treated with reverence. All of physical reality is temporary.

God is responsible for everything. This does not mean a magic wand and instant creation. It means a process of evolution. After all, if time means nothing to you, what do you care if creation takes time ? The essential ingredients to creation is that humans have a soul, animals dont.

The Old testament is regarded as an explanation to a primitive people. Why would God explain the scientific principles of evolution to a people who didnt need it and wouldnt understand it. Doctors do the same thing with their patients.




This quote of your's seems to suggest something different. I think that this may be true myself!


Ionus wrote: I do not believe in a personal God nor do I believe the Bible to be anything more than an historical record of morality based stories and political struggles
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 09:37 am
Science does exactly the same thing as religion. They both distort reality. The fundamental belief of both is that it is right, a moral choice, to distort reality. It might be, of course, impossible to do anything else, it's "hard-wired", but to distort reality but then there is no moral choice and it is neither right nor wrong.

Science distorts the reality of objects that have no choices and religion distorts objects that do have choices. How those distortions are effected is a matter for experts and science looks foolish when it claims that only the distortions of objects with no choice has validity when science would not exist unless the distortions of religion, one particular one, had provided the conditions. To keep going without religion would necessarily mean that the distortions of reality provided by it would be abandoned or would have to be effected scientifically and on objects assumed to have no choice as physical scientists have no expertise in effecting distortions of objects with choice.

It's a battle for control of the distortion of reality and I know which side I'm on. You lot would too if we could time travel you into a world you are promoting so gratuitously.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 10:48 am
@spendius,
spendi, Please show us where and how science distorts reality?
The only person who distorts reality here is you. You can't seem to grasp how science or religion works.

Religion: A group who organizes the people of their community to believe in any man-made god or gods to take whatever small earnings they make to create beautiful buildings in the midst of poverty and starvation - to make them believe in some cockamamee afterlife and saving of souls. Most of these community organizations were originally founded by a man or woman who claimed to have seen and heard from their god(s).

Scientific method (of knowledge):
Quote:
Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and our environment, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.


spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 12:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
spendi, Please show us where and how science distorts reality?


It takes energy from its natural place in the world and processes it in a fantastic way and delivers it to a switch at your fingertips for you to dally with.

It makes substances not known in nature. It pulverises trees, rolls them out into thin sheets and inserts ink marks into them which represent the tripe you must have swallowed to get you to where you are.

I got past your definitions to the real reality underneath that reality of your own you are so fond of asserting others don't understand as if there is something wrong with them.

Having satisfied you on that point perhaps you might consider the rest of my post which your question was designed to save you doing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 12:25 pm
@spendius,
spendi, You're the only one on a2k who has the knack of not understanding the same reality as the rest of us.

Your "processes it in a fantastic way" really doesn't address anything; it's not logical, and it doesn't follow how "science distorts reality."
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 12:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Suit yourself. I'm not explaining again something so simple that Tarzan would have understood it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 01:04 pm
@spendius,
Bringing Tarzan into the picture is just another one of your diversions from the primary subject.

You've made diversions into an art form.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 02:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It was not a diversion. Your incapacity to understand its relevance does not prove your assertion which is, I hardly need remind viewers, profoundly unscientific.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 03:15 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Definition of RELEVANCE
1
a : relation to the matter at hand b : practical and especially social applicability : pertinence <giving relevance to college courses>


Okay, spendi, show us how a) it relates to the matter being discussed, and b) the practical and social applicability?

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Feb, 2011 05:16 pm
@reasoning logic,
That is what I was taught Catholic Doctrine's position is. You quoted my belief at the and of your post.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 10:25 am
John Wilkins is a professor at the University of Sydney. Recently on Australian Radio, Wilson discussed how the complex idea of species has evolved over time.

Below is an excerpt from a transcript of the radio program:
Quote:
Several things forced themselves on my thinking as I read what people had said about species before Darwin. I will try to outline them.

First, people were not stupid or bad observers, before Darwin, and they did not suddenly become smart and good observers the day he published the Origin. People knew that species were variable as far back as I can find. Especially just before the rise of modern biology, but even as far back as the 12th century, you find good observers noting that (for instance) two kinds of hawk are the same because they can interbreed, despite differences in plumage and form. This is Frederick II of Hohenstaufen, Holy Roman Emperor and mad keen falconer, a sport that the west had recently adopted from the Muslim aristocracy. It is said that Frederick spent equal amounts of time working on the affairs of state as on his falconry, and he owned over a thousand birds. In writing a book, The Art of Hunting with Birds, for breeders and trainers, he noted that Aristotle was insufficient, because he was credulous and used hearsay. Frederick later gave access to his falconers to Albert the Great, Thomas Aquinas's teacher, and Albert also managed to give a pretty good account of actual species.

Mind, until 1686 the word 'species' was just a vernacular Latin word. It had no more special significance than if I say of a spanner, that it is a kind of spanner. Species did have technical meanings in logic and in theology, but if I said in Latin that there was a kind of bird outside I was not committing myself to saying that the kind had necessary and sufficient properties, as one might in logic. So the second point I want to make is that the essentialist story confuses the logical meaning of species with the later biological meaning. In fact, naturalists who studied organisms almost never refer to the logical sense, and when they do, they are careful to distinguish the two meanings. In a well-known introduction to logic in the early 19th century, before Darwin even went to university, Archbishop Richard Whately observed that the logical meaning and the naturalists' meaning of species were technically different. Right up to the First World War, logicians would repeat this obvious and simple claim. Unfortunately, the essentialist story authors missed these caveats even in the source texts they used as evidence.

Naturalists were typologists, however. Types and logical classes are quite different things. A botanist might designate a type species for a genus of flowering plant, knowing full well that not all species in it would have the 'typical' traits used to 'define' the genus. So long as most roses had most of the traits of the 'type' Rose, they were roses. Types were exemplars that one used to organise things around in your classifications. The leading historian of the science of classification, Polly Winsor, has called this 'the method of exemplars', and it was not only pre-Darwinian, it was the same method used by Darwin and every taxonomist until the modern era. In fact, Darwin was on the committee that established Linnaean taxonomy as the way to do biological classification.

My third point is that the idea that species were fixed at creation was not the default view before Darwin, and it did not, as the essentialist story holds, begin with Aristotelian thinking in the western tradition. Fixism, as we now call it, was not asserted until non-biologists like the Jesuit theologian and polymath Athanasius Kircher in the 17th century tried to explain how Noah's Ark could hold all living things. This work influenced a young botanist named John Ray, and in 1686, in the course of publishing a series of botanies and zoological works of his late friend, Francis Willughby, he first defined what he meant in natural history by the Latin word 'species', and I quote:
"In order that an inventory of plants may be begun and a classification of them correctly established, we must try to discover criteria of some sort for distinguishing what are called 'species'. After long and considerable investigation, no surer criterion for determining species has occurred to me than the distinguishing features that perpetuate themselves in propagation from seed. Thus, no matter what variations occur in the individuals or the species, if they spring from the seed of one and the same plant, they are accidental variations and not such as to distinguish a species ... Animals likewise that differ specifically preserve their distinct species permanently; one species never springs from the seed of another nor vice versa."

Ray did not defend this claim that species were fixed. It was simply a matter of piety. He was one of the founders of the British tradition in natural theology, the project to find information about God through the study of the natural world. When Linnaeus wrote in 1736 that 'There are as many species as the Infinite Being produced diverse forms in the beginning', he was merely repeating what he had read in Ray.

However, before Ray, and all the way back to Aristotle, species were malleable things, generating monsters and hybrids that bred true, and given that there was no biological meaning to the term or concept before Ray, to say that people then were species fixists is to commit an anachronism. In any case, Aristotle talked of hybrids forming new animals in Africa and India, a claim that was repeated not only by Pliny, the main source of natural history for 1,600 years, but by at least one of the translators of the King James Bible. And even Linnaeus himself said that species could form by hybridism. As a side note, let us observe that Aristotle didn't even use the Greek term for 'species', eidos, when describing animals and plants.

My fourth point is that there is only one concept of species, and it is one that goes back at least to Epicurus, Aristotle's younger contemporary, if not to Aristotle himself. Plato, of course, was not in the slightest interested in the mundane world, so we can ignore him. I call this the generative conception of species and it is implicit in Ray's definition: A species is when progeny resemble parents due to the generative powers they share. In short, species are reproduction plus resemblance. Even Darwin, and I would say, all modern biologists, hold to this conception. What modern biologists disagree over is how to explain this; what it means to generate similar morphologies.

The term 'morphology' in biology means the overall shape or appearance of an organism, together with internal resemblances of physiology and anatomy. The essentialism story authors, like Ernest Mayr, thought that there was a 'morphological definition' of species, but really this was just a method of diagnosing museum specimens. Again, Darwin used exactly this method, and helped formulate it. Diagnosis, however, is not the same as the thing being diagnosed, or broken bones would consist in part in having X-rays. Even today, taxonomists occasionally confuse the naming and diagnosis of species with the species themselves. If a fly is diagnosed by a single cross-vein in its wings, that is not what makes it a species, of course, and nobody ever thought that it did, before Darwin, or after. The morphological definition is a phantom.

One of the interesting things about the species debate is how scientists use history to bolster their own views or undermine their opponents'.

Darwin is such a crucial figure in the development of modern biology that the temptation is constantly there to claim that one is working in Darwin's footsteps, or one is revising and correcting Darwin. Basically, Darwin did not do very much to our conception of species apart from make it more widely acceptable for naturalists to treat them as temporary things that grade into one another, something that was known or accepted well before him. If there was a crucial figure in our understanding of species today, it is not Darwin, but Mendel.

Mendelian genetics began around 1900 and, by 1904, a well known biologist, Edward Bagnell Poulton, had written an influential essay entitled 'What is a species?' The new genetics immediately had people trying to find genetic definitions: pure lines, gene groups etc, were all tried out and rejected. Thus was born what we now call the species problem. Darwin did not have a species problem, he had a species question: How do species originate? Mendel caused us to start producing the large number of species definitions - 26 at last count - that we now have.

In thinking about species we are dealing with the heart of science in many ways. Even now biologists sporadically tear into that concept and the variety of definitions in play. I don't expect that this will change any time soon.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Feb, 2011 11:38 am
@wandeljw,
wandel, Excellent post: thanks for sharing it with us.
 

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