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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 02:17 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Young-earth creationists value literal reading of Bible over human intellect
(By Bob Allen, Associated Baptist Press, February 06, 2009)

In his 2006 best-selling nonfiction book, The God Delusion, British biologist Richard Dawkins said he is hostile toward religion because of what it did to Kurt Wise.

Wise, a Harvard graduate who studied under paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould, gave up his dream of teaching at a major university because he could not reconcile claims of science with his faith.

At one point, Wise took out a newly purchased Bible and a pair of scissors. Beginning at Gen. 1:1, he cut out every verse that would have to be removed in order for him to believe in evolution.

Months later, he cut out his final verse and one of the last verses in the Bible, Rev. 22:19, which read, “If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Wise describes what happened next: “With the cover of the Bible taken off, I attempted to physically lift the Bible from the bed between two fingers. Yet, try as I might, and even with the benefit of intact margins throughout the pages of Scripture, I found it impossible to pick up the Bible without it being rent in two.

Anyone who spends months shredding a bible and then doesn't understand why he can't pick it up without it falling apart, has issues.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 03:08 pm
@wandeljw,
I notice that the leader of the opposition has once again failed to answer my previous post. We will have to hope that he is not so daft as to think his abject failure has gone un-noticed. His dart into the YEC stuff is akin to a startled rabbit shooting down its nice safe burrow.

His post has nothing to do with the subject matter. It merely deals with a small number of crackpots on the sitting duck theory.

Quote:
“The wound to his career and his life’s happiness was self-inflicted, so unnecessary, so easy to escape,” Dawkins lamented. “All he had to do was toss out the Bible or interpret it symbolically or allegorically as the theologians do. Instead, he did the fundamentalist thing and tossed out science, evidence and reason, along with all his dreams and hopes.”

Wise’s current boss, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Albert Mohler, viewed it as a badge of honor. Mohler brought Wise to Southern Seminary in 2006 to lead the Center for Theology and Science.


So Dawkins recognises symbolic and allegorical interpretations of the Bible does he? Anti-IDers don't show much sign of wanting to bother with that. Maybe it is beyond their capacities. Like the Fundies they prefer to read it literally as it is so much easier for them to deal with that way.

A reasonable explanation of Mr Wise's behaviour in deliberately not seeking an "escape" is that the Theological Seminary placed him in a position of authority in an institution containing numbers of enthusiastic, buxom ladies in white diaphonous gowns chanting mantras and going all weak at the knees in contrast to the research assistants in scientific establishments who are noted for their flat chests and extreme scientific curiosity about all matters and not just those to be found in test tubes and fossil display cabinets.

Dawkins assumes a "wound". It fits in with his theories you see.

I hear that the young lady with the octuplets fathered by a sperm bank using the latest science intends to have more. If she succeeds twenty more times her child benefit cheques might exceed the salaries of many scientists and make it un-neccessary for many relatively unfit men to breed at all. She seemed quite determined. Maybe she has her eye on the Guinness Book of Records. Maybe others will seek to emulate her as a way of getting on chat shows and being the centre of attention.

She didn't look much put out by the ordeal I thought.

Keep on chuntering into your beard effemm. It really is quite amusing seeing you display such touching innocence.


0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 04:32 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
These guys with solid academic training and strong counter-religious views are unforgivable for what they are doing to kids minds. The test of how silly they are is to get them to try to count the actual advancements in our science and technology that were made using such a Creationist worldview.The answer? ZERO


effemm seems to be quite incapable of understanding that the above is a circularity and a non sequitur.

It is based upon the unspoken belief that his view of these matters is the correct one. When challenged on that he ignores it. It is a belief. A bigotry.

Decoded-what he said there is that anybody who teaches anything he doesn't approve of is doing something unforgivable to kids minds.

If I was promoting the teaching of evolution in schools I would want him off the case because the constant use of circularities and non sequiturs with partial and unpoven assertions as their premisses is self-evidently not only stupid but unscientific and anti-education. And only people of a like mind would want such things on their side of a debate.

I find it inexplicable.

He's been asked to explain what he would do with kids minds and how he would implement it in practice for 50 million kids in actual classrooms rather than in his own abstacted fantasies but he will not answer that either.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 05:18 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
[/It is based upon the unspoken belief that his view of these matters is the correct one.quote].

CAn you thenm defend the Wise's of the world? wheres their scientific contribution besides taking up space in the past White House .? Cannot come up with one can you? just like the Wise's of the world, youre trying to divert eyes from the issues.

YECs ,OECs and IDers must be fought and defeated in the classroom and in the legislative halls. HAving simpletons like spendi half support the IDers and other anti-science types by attempting to occupy some moral (and Historically inacurrate) ground is really sad for our kids, spendi wont (and is no-doubt unable) to provide us any evidence wherein the antiscience worldviews have actually contributed anything to our civilization besides the likes of Ben Stein, William Dembski,Duane Gish, and George Macready Price.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 06:42 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ben Stein, William Dembski,Duane Gish, and George Macready Price.


I'm not interested in those guys. They are probably self promoters. They've seen a case to get onto to get their names up in lights and they trot out all the well known arguments with the wording slightly changed.

Why would I want to defend Wise's view of the world? I could probably **** all over it I should think. I offered a rational explanation and who am I to object to it. I'm not here to spoil people's fun.

The scientific severities are no fun and that's for sure. Scientists can't even boogie properly. Calamity Jane said they were nerds. I'm a romantic. I like to think ladies are a divine creation. I tried thinking of them scientifically and the resultant ironic erection nearly gelded me.

Have you seen the PG tips ads with the monkeys dressed in frocks pouring the tea out?

I'm all for illusions. I don't rate disillusion. And I don't want kids being disillusioned before their time. Telling them that they are descended from a worm with a mouth at one end and an anus at the other and that they are munching through the nutrient bed is a lot worse that telling them there is no Father Christmas. Why can't you wait until they get a bit older for that?

I'm not promoting any anti-science views. My life and my eyesight have been saved by science and science has brought me a comfy couch on which to watch a great Test Match with our current weather eliminated. And McVitie's Chocolate Digestives.

You're saying eat two tons of them. I eat my greens as well.

Answer the ******* post I invited you to do or else **** off. Your position denies emotions and what's much worse it denies the link between emotions and physiological well being.

Don't try linking anti-science and religion with me. If you don't think religion is scientific you have been reading crap books for too long.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 07:24 am
@spendius,
Quote:
I could probably **** all over it I should think
.

A baseless boast that comes from your own ineffectual collections of toad droppings. Your use of "probably" regales me with the fact that your own understanding of the issues are , if not baseless, borne of some Catechetical tripe that began with Cardinal Bellarmine. Too bad that you are lost in the revisions of the Religious council of BAltimore and havent yet broken into the more enlightened daylight of the years Post Vatican II. Your own poor attenpts at anti science views are based upon silly metaphors and other irrelevancies to the subject at hand, depite your own protestations.

Why not just go to your trivia threads and deal with things at your level. Its certainly not difficult to come up with an alphabetical string of words that depict eating, or what' you dislike, or whatever is hot on your pea brain today.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 08:07 am
@farmerman,
Oh well-- I didn't expect an answer. I expected what happened.

Another pile of flapdoodle circularity and non-sequiturings. Of course I'm all you say if your position is the right one. Tell us something we don't know. It follows like 2+2= 4 that if you are right I am silly. Obviously. Do you go around telling people what they already know all the time. All larded with machismo allusions. You should make a tape explaining how things are. You could sell it in the Insomniac's Journal. Five minutes should be enough with a ten-minute de-luxe version, only $5 extra, for those who just found out they won the lottery roll-over jackpot.

The question is "are you right?" and has nothing to do with the state I'm in if you are right. I concede every point in that case. Indeed, I would go much further.

No wonder you don't understand my posts. You're talking about the mental state of your protagonist assuming you're right. I'm talking about whether you are right or not. I wouldn't lower myself to talking about your mental state assuming you are wrong. It would be impolite.

And stop trying to write better. You need to read the masters first.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 08:42 am
@spendius,
Well, obviously letting you off my ignore list aint helping the discourse. Youre as inane as even and just as dimwitted.
see ya,
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 09:05 am
@farmerman,
Having me on the ignore list, who else is on btw, is a cheap and easy device to avoid discussing which one of us is right and which one is silly. It enables you to think you are right all the time and thus not silly and you can then, without impediment, cease to discuss who is right and give your full concentration to your protagonist's silliness which is axiomatic once you are right.

It suggests you lack confidence in discussing who is right for fear you might discover you're not and silly yourself. I don't lack that confidence. I have no ignore list and never will have.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 12:28 pm
Ive put spendi back on my ignore. I found that, since I recently removed him(with the hope that he would take part in sane debate), he merely pulls my chains so that I find it escalates the childishness and Im just as guilty as he in being increasingly rude. SO, As I said on another thread, Im going to cry enough and admit tht Im being just as childish as Spendi, and I will put a stop to it by resuming the ignore status for our Mr spendi/ Others, whove quoted him when he continues tripping on me will find that, for me, its like rereading his posts to me (at least in part), and that gets the imp in me fired up . However,I now make the terminal Italian curse on mR SPendi.
"HES DEAD TO ME"
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 12:44 pm
@farmerman,
Yeah--big deal. I'll just discuss effemm's posts in the third person singular.

He's lost the argument and is doing a runner with his hands over his eyes.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 03:05 pm
MISSISSIPPI UPDATE
Quote:
Chism's bill to monkey with textbooks dies in committee
(Sid Salter, Jackson Clarion-Ledger, February 8, 2009)

Mercifully, House Bill 25 died unceremoniously in the House Education Committee. That the committee had the good sense not to wade off into this unnecessary exercise in political pandering is proof that the committee has not only evolved, but has been divinely inspired.

Like every other state in the union, Mississippi educators teach Sir Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution as part of the science curriculum in this state's public schools. "We teach the theory of evolution as theory, not as fact," said state Superintendent of Education Hank Bounds.

But state Rep. Gary Chism, R-Columbus, thought that students and faculty members alike in the state needed an additional level of protection against the theories that Darwin first published 150 years ago that all life is related and has descended from a common ancestor.

Chism authored HB 25, a bill that would have required a disclaimer sticker be placed on the inside front cover of every state textbook that taught evolutionary theory that read as follows:

"The word 'theory' has many meanings, including: systematically organized knowledge; abstract reasoning; a speculative idea or plan; or a systematic statement of principles. Scientific theories are based on both observations of the natural world and assumptions about the natural world. They are always subject to change in view of new and confirmed observations."

"This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things. No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life's origins should be considered a theory."

"Evolution refers to the unproven belief that random, undirected forces produced living things. There are many topics with unanswered questions about the origin of life which are not mentioned in your textbook, including: the sudden appearance of the major groups of animals in the fossil record (known as the Cambrian Explosion); the lack of new major groups of other living things appearing in the fossil record; the lack of transitional forms of major groups of plants and animals in the fossil record; and the complete and complex set of instructions for building a living body possessed by all living things."

"Study hard and keep an open mind."

Ironically, Darwin's Theory of Evolution is somewhat a theory in crisis in light of modern advances in genetics over the past 50 years. So-called "intelligent design" proponents point to the concept of "irreducible complexity" as a flaw in Darwin's theories, but that concept has not yet gained wide acceptance.

A 2008 Gallup Poll found only 14 percent of Americans would agree with Darwin that "man evolved over millions of years." Most agreed, in varying degrees of certainty, with King David in Psalms 139:14 when he said: "I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made."

As to disclaimer stickers in textbooks that teach evolutionary theories, only Alabama does that. Much of the language in Chism's bill came from the Alabama law. One county in Georgia tried to do it, but lost the effort in federal courts.

But such legislation has been a darling of those "monkey see, monkey do" legislators who pander to the same old fears that gave us the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 08:11 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ive put spendi back on my ignore.

Glad you've seen the light (again) Smile
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Feb, 2009 08:16 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

MISSISSIPPI UPDATE
Quote:
Chism's bill to monkey with textbooks dies in committee
(Sid Salter, Jackson Clarion-Ledger, February 8, 2009)

"This textbook discusses evolution, a controversial theory..."


Except it's not a controversial theory. No more so than than the theory that the Earth orbits the sun.

Nice try Mr. Chism. Back to school for you.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 12:29 pm
FLORIDA UPDATE
Quote:
Wise to introduce bill on intelligent design
(By Matt Soergel, Jacksonville Times-Union, Feb. 8, 2009)

Amid much controversy a year ago, the Florida Board of Education approved new standards that require public schools to teach that the scientific theory of evolution is the foundation of all biological science.

But don't think that battle is over. Not even close.

State Sen. Stephen Wise, a Jacksonville Republican, said he plans to introduce a bill to require teachers who teach evolution to also discuss the idea of intelligent design.

Intelligent design is the concept that life is so complex that it couldn't occur naturally but must have had an intelligent force working to make it happen.

Wise, the chief sponsor of the bill, expects the Senate to take it up when it meets in March. He said its intent is simple: "If you're going to teach evolution, then you have to teach the other side so you can have critical thinking."

Wise said that if the Legislature passes the bill, he wouldn't be surprised if there's a legal challenge.

"You just never know. They use the courts all the time. I guess if they have enough money they can get it in the courts," he said. "Someplace along the line you've got to be able to make a value judgment of what it is you think is the appropriate thing."

Intelligent design has been in the courts before. In 2005, a federal judge barred a Pennsylvania school district from teaching intelligent design in public schools, calling it an example of "breathtaking inanity." The judge, a Republican, wrote that there was "overwhelming evidence" that the theory is a "religious view," not scientific theory.

Wise's planned bill isn't a surprise to those who favor teaching evolution.

"We were expecting some sort of effort to blunt evolution education," said Paul Cottle, a physics professor at Florida State University who helped draft the year-old science standards on evolution. "What you are describing is one of the tools in the standard anti-evolution toolbox."

It won't be the first time the Legislature has addressed the issue.

After the standards were approved in February 2008, the Senate and House each passed bills that would require public schools to teach "critical analysis" of evolution. The majority in both chambers said they wanted to protect teachers from being punished if they questioned evolution.

That effort died in the Legislature, however, because the two chambers weren't able to reconcile their plans into a single bill.

This time around, though, Wise - a co-sponsor of the 2008 bill in the Senate - said he expects the House plan to be extremely similar to the one he will introduce. That should make it easier to pass, he said.

Wise acknowledges it's a controversial subject. "I got a lot of hate mail last year," he said. "You'd think I'd never gone to school, that I was Cro-Magnon man, that I just got out of a cave or something."

Those bills were a deliberate effort to "undermine" the new Florida standards on evolution, said Brandon Haught of Florida Citizens for Science, a group supportive of teaching evolution.

"My group is keeping an eye out for this bill to pop up again," he said. "Hopefully legislators are worried about other things."

In classrooms, little has changed since the Board of Education's evolution decision, said David Campbell, a science teacher at Orange Park's Ridgeview High who helped write the new science standards. School districts will put them into practice over the next few years, giving students time to incorporate the knowledge as they take the science FCAT exam in 11th grade. In addition, textbooks need to be developed and paid for, and teachers need to be trained, though he wonders where the money will come from for that.

If the Legislature passes a bill on intelligent design, Campbell expects it will be challenged. "I think if they pass anything like the bills they passed last year, they're looking at an almost certain lawsuit, which will cost big bucks," he said.

Rep. Alan Hays, a Republican from Umatilla, sponsored the "critical analysis" bill in the House last year and said he would support a similar effort this session. He thinks it's likely to pass this time in a close vote.

"The thing we learned last year is that, No. 1, we must keep the discussion scientific. I don't know of anyone who is in favor of teaching religion in public," he said. "We want the students to know that the theory of evolution is only a theory, it has never ever been scientifically proven, and it should be accepted as that."

Cottle called the controversy over evolution a "strange component in the culture wars." He said he's met biology teachers who are constantly challenged by students who refuse to accept evolution, which - far from being "just a theory" - is accepted by the vast majority of scientists.

"It's like students have been put up to it by their pastors," he said. "And I'm sure there are cases of religious students feeling harassed because they're being asked to study this."

The controversy will continue, he said.

"This is a national effort, and it's not nearly over," he said.

Indeed, Hays traveled Friday to Virginia for a symposium at Liberty University School of Law on "Intelligent Design and Public School Curriculum."

He was to be a guest speaker, discussing the legislative side of the issue.

Hays said part of his beliefs come from his training as a dentist, which involved an extensive education in anatomy.

"How can anyone study the human body and deny that it was created by a higher power?" he said. "It is one magnificent collection of genius.

"It is not an accident that happened to come together."
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 01:03 pm
@wandeljw,
Incredible. Lets beat our heads with a mallet again and again and believe that there wont be a headache .
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 01:31 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

FLORIDA UPDATE
Quote:
Wise to introduce bill on intelligent design
(By Matt Soergel, Jacksonville Times-Union, Feb. 8, 2009)

If the Legislature passes a bill on intelligent design, Campbell expects it will be challenged. "I think if they pass anything like the bills they passed last year, they're looking at an almost certain lawsuit, which will cost big bucks," he said.

Rep. Alan Hays, a Republican from Umatilla, sponsored the "critical analysis" bill in the House last year and said he would support a similar effort this session. He thinks it's likely to pass this time in a close vote.

"The thing we learned last year is that, No. 1, we must keep the discussion scientific. I don't know of anyone who is in favor of teaching religion in public," he said. "We want the students to know that the theory of evolution is only a theory, it has never ever been scientifically proven, and it should be accepted as that."

I wonder how long constituents will continue to allow their legislators to propose frivolous irrational bills. The boards of education in Kansas and Dover got voted out for embarrassing themselves. It seems like only a matter of time before state reps start to feel the same heat for wasting time and tax payer money.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 01:38 pm
@rosborne979,
YEh,
"Avoid the costly law suits over religious worldviews that challenge science, Dont pass the damn laws in the first place"

I wonder how long gov Jindal will it there unchallenged by some school district before he gets his head back on straight.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 01:49 pm
@farmerman,
It seems like Dr. Scott of the NCSE will never be able to retire.

I saw an interview with Stephen Jay Gould that was filmed about a year before he died. Gould was asked if he still battles creationists. He replied, "Nah. It's a waste of time."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 9 Feb, 2009 02:14 pm
@wandeljw,
He got that right! LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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