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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2009 06:46 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It's pub time
The only thing of any worth.




Quote:
It's just hilarious effemm that a bunch of so-called science education experts are in denial of these points I'm making.


Well, you must understand, they have no idea that you even exist. Mores the pity that I do.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2009 06:59 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The only thing of any worth.


It obsesses you doesn't it effemm? Last hour of the day is all it is with a few of the neighbours. And your bottom line argument. Your fail safe jibe as you appeal for comfort to those Americans who didn't partake in the $115 billion US booze sales of 2006. I bet you don't smoke either. Keep your tax contributions to a minimum.

If you clutch at much more straw you'll end up in a backwater.

Quote:
Well, you must understand, they have no idea that you even exist.


Any evidence for that assertion?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Feb, 2009 11:21 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Any evidence for that assertion?


Well name one of them that wrote you. Or even acknowledged your existence.

Your habits with JB are legion. They are chronicled herein by your shaky hand , silly syntax, and irrelevant references. I dont have to be obsessive (with the exception of wishing that, for all the space you waste, youd say something halfaway intelligent) .
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 05:52 am
@farmerman,
You're at it again. All the space I waste. That's meaningless unless your definition of "waste" is scientifically correct.

Hence, and it's dead easy, you're making up your own science. You're in another circle.

So it's obvious too how "halfaway intelligent" is you marking your own work.

Quote:
Well, you must understand, they have no idea that you even exist.


You said that. The onus is on you to provide evidence. And there's no reason offered why I "must" understand. Why must I understand? You're making up the rules now.

Who are the "they"? My "so-called science education experts" are you lot. And you lot know I exist.

That post was gibberish effemm. Unadulterated.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 05:57 am
@farmerman,
And if I was in your place I would ask ros to piss off like I did with gunga and real life. He discredits your side with his every post and you don't need much help with that. He makes you look ridiculous. So does ci.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:04 am
@spendius,
gunga just has you on ignore and real life just went with the missions. I will argue with anyone who has their facts and evidence wrong, to my information basis. The only one who is wastingprecious bytes is you.
Ill try not to bother you in your frothing, I get no minimal amount of amusement of your jumping about like a leaf hopper on a hot road.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:13 pm
@farmerman,
gunga's last post was Feb 4. He's ignoring A2K. Not me. I only go on a few threads and then mostly Trivia.

Making it up again effemm.

A leaf hopper would jump about on a hot road. I didn't heat the road up. I'm trying to cool it down. Would you just let your feet burn.

You can't even make any sense with similes.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:20 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
gunga's last post was Feb 4. He's ignoring A2K. Not me. I only go on a few threads and then mostly Trivia.

Making it up again effemm.
IT IS Feb 4 on this side of the ATlantic.

As far as missing the entire point with the leaf hopper, dont stress yourself out, someday youll catch up.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:34 pm
@farmerman,
It looked like Doomsday to me watching Mr P. Income caps! $500 grand!! Jeeps-that's small change on Wall Street. They ain't gonna stand for that just because a word like "extraordinary" pork was used. What is it after tax?

Let's get it straight. Do you think it a hot road or not? Answer that and we'll go from there.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 06:38 pm
@farmerman,
Okay. I was skenning. But gunga having me on Ignore ought to convince you how unbearable ID is to Creationists. Atheism is much more amenable to them.

So knock off linking the two.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 09:50 am
Quote:
The things you can find on Darwin Day
( by PZ Myers, ScienceBlogs.com, February 4, 2009)

The Darwin Day website has a calendar of events, and you can search for cool things that might be happening near you next week. Except…well, apparently the site organizers aren't very discriminating about who and what can be posted there. Like this…
Quote:
Darwin Conference (Free)
Location: 3800 S. Fairview St
Santa Ana/CA 92704
Activities: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:30 AM to 8:55 AM Video (All Ages) 9:00 AM to 10:00 AM Ken Ham: Answers for Racism - Darwin & Evolution`s Racist Roots. (Ages 11 & Up) 10:20 AM to 11:10 AM Dr. Andrew Snelling:Answers from Geology - The Catastrophe of Noah`s Flood (Ages 11 & Up) 11:25 AM to 12:15 PM Dr. David Menton: Answers about the "Ape-Men" (Ages 11 & Up) 12:15 PM to 1:25 PM Lunch Break (All Ages) 1:30 PM to 2:40 PM Ken Ham: Answers for Effective Evangelism in the 21st Century (Ages 11 & Up) 3:00 PM to 3:50 PM Dr. Andrew Snelling:Answers from Science and Scripture on the Real Age of the Earth (Ages 11 & Up) 4:05 PM to 4:55 PM Dr. David Menton: Answers from Design - Intelligent Design vs. Darwinian Evolution (Ages 11 & Up) 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM Ken Ham: Genesis: Key to Reaching Today`s World (All Ages)


So if you want to celebrate Darwin's birthday by listening to some cranks and crackpots make up stuff about the science, preach about jebus, and teach your children a hodge-podge of lies, there you go, have fun.

I think it's a bit inappropriate, myself. Although I am looking forward to a fun summer when I can reciprocate and crash Vacation Bible School to tell the little kiddies about the fallacies and inconsistencies of the bible, and how the Earth is 4.6 billion years old and life evolved upon it.

Don't tell me that would be rude. They started it!

P.S. Shame on you, DarwinDay.org. Could we maybe have a little quality control?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 09:56 am
@wandeljw,
hee hee. Meyers can be a real clown sometimes. He asks for it by posting a blog that is there primarily to skewer the IDers and Creationists.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 07:38 pm
@farmerman,
Somebody should ask the silly sod what he proposes on the positive action side and how to implement it. Anybody can boo.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 12:23 am
@spendius,
You are living proof of that. AT least Meyers speaks from a position of knowledge and experience.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 04:08 am
@farmerman,
How come? Anti-IDers have been booing the status quo from one end of these threads to the other without ever once offering their own policy and a method of implementing it except in the most general of generalities such as the assertion that they are saving American science which has got fed up of playing golf on the moon and which can rush aid to disasters and famines while fighting on countless fronts. As if your little and shrinking band of brothers can save American science. What a joke. You can hardly read and write and have no science. It's a mere self-indulgent conceit.

I'm sticking up for the status quo. That's the opposite of booing.

Your other witticism is just another assertion. I hope they kick his arse, like they did your's, when he tries disrupting their meetings. "They" didn't start it. Our culture started it. Meyers can't read or write either. Knowledge and experience my arse. He's a jumped up pip-squeak.

He even insults Jesus. The greatest man who ever lived. Conservatives are not finished. Mid-termers are just round the corner.

If you were serious on the positive action side, which I know you're not, you would get on with getting rid of elections.

You're starting to sound like ci. effemm.



0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 09:41 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Evolution revolution? Science teachers are cautiously cheering state education updates
(Jennifer L. Berghom, The Monitor, February 5, 2009)

Jeremiah Fuentes isn't completely sold on the idea that humans and other living beings evolved from lower life-forms. But he doesn't see a problem with teaching evolution in the classroom, either.

"I don't believe in evolution, but I don't see it as an issue," said Jeremiah, a 14-year-old freshman at the South Texas High School for Health Professions, commonly known as Med High.

He and his classmates said learning about evolution is just part of their science instruction in school, and they don't really see any conflicts.

"You've got to learn what they give you. I believe in evolution and I believe in God, too," said Leandro Sastre, a 14-year-old freshman. "(Evolution) is easier to prove than creation because you have so many religions."

A recent, tentative decision made by the Texas State Board of Education may make it easier for science teachers in public school to teach the popular scientific theory. And that has teachers in the Rio Grande Valley relieved, for now.

For at least a decade, the state required public school science teachers to discuss the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution and any other theory in class.

Critics said the requirement was a way for more socially conservative members of the board to sneak intelligent design and creationism into the classroom. Proponents said it actually promoted critical thinking and was a way for students to learn more about evolution.

Science teachers in the Valley didn't experience much pressure from local districts or the community on how to teach evolution.

Perhaps that is because most people in the Valley are Catholic, and the Catholic Church " as well as mainline Protestant denominations of Christianity " have backed off from the evolution debate, said Bob Soper, a retired science teacher and an ordained minister with the Episcopal Church.

But the state mandate did place a burden on teachers to include ideas the majority of the science community has rejected, said Soper and other members of the Rio Grande Science Association, which is comprised of science educators from all over the Valley.

"There's a place to teach religion, just not in the science classroom," said Soper, who taught for the Pharr-San Juan-Alamo school district for 10 years and was a science coordinator for the district for 19 years.

He and other teachers worry that last-minute language added by more socially conservative members of the state education board to the Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills standards for science would require teachers to discuss intelligent design and other theories that challenge evolution.

That amendment would require students to "analyze and evaluate the sufficiency or insufficiency of common ancestry to explain the sudden appearance, stasis and sequential nature of groups in the fossil record." Board members passed that amendment in a 9-6 vote, according to the Texas Education Agency.

"I don't trust these people at all," said Soper, an original member of the Rio Grande Valley Science Association. "These people have an agenda and (that agenda) is not in the best interest of the students of Texas."

Curriculum standards are updated every 10 years, and the "strengths and weaknesses" language was added about a decade ago, according to the Texas Education Agency.

The "strengths and weaknesses" provision was put in place as a compromise after members of the state education board could not agree on science curriculum standards, said Mary Helen Berlanga, one of the board members who represent the Valley. She was among the eight board members who voted in favor of removing that language last month.

"It's the right thing to do for our children and grandchildren," she said.

But those who support retaining the language said the board's decision will stifle critical thinking and silence teachers and students who have questions about evolution and other theories.

"Many state board members just ignored their constituents," said Jonathan Saenz, director of legislative affairs for the Free Market Foundation, a faith-based organization dedicated to influencing public policy.

He said the board received thousands of letters and calls from parents and students across the state asking members to keep the language in the standards.

While proponents of the language's removal claim the "strengths and weaknesses" requirement is an attempt by some to include intelligent design and other theories, Saenz said the language actually is about making sure students learn more about evolution by having the ability to have further discussions on the theory.

"Are we going to teach part of evolution or teach all of it?" Saenz asked.

But science teachers, including Soper and Michael Wertz, who teaches at Med High, said by arguing evolution, which is widely accepted by the scientific community, schools hinder students' ability to learn science and threaten Texas' role as a leader in science-related industries.

"We're not trying to proselytize evolution, but we do (view) evolution and natural selection as tenets of science," Wertz said.

The State Board of Education is expected to take a final vote on the changes next month.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 09:53 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Evolution revolution? Science teachers are cautiously cheering state education updates
(Jennifer L. Berghom, The Monitor, February 5, 2009)
"Many state board members just ignored their constituents," said Jonathan Saenz, director of legislative affairs for the Free Market Foundation, a faith-based organization dedicated to influencing public policy.

He said the board received thousands of letters and calls from parents and students across the state asking members to keep the language in the standards.

While proponents of the language's removal claim the "strengths and weaknesses" requirement is an attempt by some to include intelligent design and other theories, Saenz said the language actually is about making sure students learn more about evolution by having the ability to have further discussions on the theory.

"Are we going to teach part of evolution or teach all of it?" Saenz asked.

But science teachers, including Soper and Michael Wertz, who teaches at Med High, said by arguing evolution, which is widely accepted by the scientific community, schools hinder students' ability to learn science and threaten Texas' role as a leader in science-related industries.


One thing's for certain, they are not doing students any favors by implying that there is any debate in science about the fact of evolution. There simply isn't. And students should know that, regardless of what they choose to believe personally.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 12:48 pm
@rosborne979,
Nothing's for certain and that's the only thing that is for certain. If ever you need cast iron proof of ros's sicentific ignorance it is right there in that--

Quote:
One thing's for certain.


And there is nobody on this thread, or anywhere else, who is disputing the fact of evolution because it is a dynamic process going on right now all around us. It didn't stop when Origins was published and it started long before mankind even existed and might well continue long after mankind has departed.

Why is ros allowed to continue misleading people, particularly young people, in the manner he has just attempted to do. And in the name of science. I am non-plussed why there are no scientists prepared to come on here and ask him to desist from discrediting science in this crass and infantile manner. I sometimes think he might be a YEC coming on here for that very purpose.

And we are not discussing the "fact" of evolution. There's nothing to discuss. Like- I think therefore I am---it's happening right now therefore it is. Which explains why ros cannot read or write. And what somebody in that state, at his age, is doing having an input into education policy for 50 million kids is baffling to put it at its mildest.

We are discussing teaching it. The reason we are discussing teaching it, and how it might be taught by Marxists and atheists in actual classrooms, is because to do so has social consequences which we might not wish to see whereas all other aspects of science, apart from a few areas of biology and psychology, don't. We wish to see, or most people do, science prosper. And it might not prosper to its fullest extent if it is to be continually used for the purpose ros is trying to sneak past our guard with slippery words.

The teaching of evolution undermines religion. All religion. And as religion has social functions the teaching of evolution, especially by political extremists, and who else is there, undermines those functions. In fact it sets them aside altogether. And that is the objective of anti-IDers and if it is unintended they are merely fools and dupes of those who do intend to undermine those functions for political reasons or for personal convenience. As a Communist would. Obviously. Or any totalitarian. Equally obviously.

Religion functions, now and always, to support and be supported by the state as we saw blatantly exposed at the inauguration. ros has no alternative but to scoff at those oaths and count them as nothing. Or any oaths taken in the name of religion. And to scoff at the church services attended on inauguration day and the day after by the Democratic hierarchy. Every jibe aimed on here equally applies to all that and much more besides. The baptisms, weddings and funerals of millions of Americans for example.

Religion affords an emotional outlet for those whose lives are circumscribed in some way. The poor, the sick, the depressed, the bereaved or even well-to-do people who sense an emptiness in their lives such as the congregation of the Burning Man cult. Religion offers the possibility of joy and release from the severe facts of life, which many millions find unbearable, and many millions more will find unbearable when faced with life seen in an exclusively scientific perspective.

It offers a system of community togetherness and facilitates social gatherings. The mystery religion of Eleusis offered the comforts of a blessed resurrection. That is not a Christian invention.

It seeks to enlist Divine aid for the practical purpose of upholding ideals of conduct which could only be acheived without religion by orders and regulations coming from a human source such as a Comintern. Or a Party structure in the hands of a few.

And religion inspires art. All our great art; be it architecture, music, literature, painting or sculpture. The Christian religion has inspired all our science.

It maintains traditional values and provides a system whereby those traditional values can only be gradually modified after much consideration rather than radically altered at the stroke of a pen.

If we allow religion to be set aside what does science have to offer in respect of those functions apart from the policies of the ruling elite. And why will anti-IDers not only not answer that question but are ****-scared of even seeing it expressed. They are wimps as well. Running from the truth. And bleating about the truth all bloody day long. As a critter too.

And it is highly likely that this ignorant and frightened opposition to religion is not only subjectively convenient to its own interests, mainly regarding sexual matters, but is fulfilling the same functions as religion does for others in that it is giving its adherents also an opportunity for emotional respite, an escape from reality, even to the point of taking leave of their senses, provides the joy and release in insulting invective aimed at people who cannot answer back and an opportunity to rewrite the ethical codes from the point of its own mad control freakery and thus further their own careers.

We all know what anti-religious Soviet art looked and sounded like and we all know how the experiment ended and thus it is fair to assume that anti-ID is subversive and treacherous. I commend this statement to the House.

(The Speaker now called the leader of the opposition.)
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 11:48 am
Quote:
Young-earth creationists value literal reading of Bible over human intellect
(By Bob Allen, Associated Baptist Press, February 06, 2009)

In his 2006 best-selling nonfiction book, The God Delusion, British biologist Richard Dawkins said he is hostile toward religion because of what it did to Kurt Wise.

Wise, a Harvard graduate who studied under paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould, gave up his dream of teaching at a major university because he could not reconcile claims of science with his faith.

At one point, Wise took out a newly purchased Bible and a pair of scissors. Beginning at Gen. 1:1, he cut out every verse that would have to be removed in order for him to believe in evolution.

Months later, he cut out his final verse and one of the last verses in the Bible, Rev. 22:19, which read, “If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Wise describes what happened next: “With the cover of the Bible taken off, I attempted to physically lift the Bible from the bed between two fingers. Yet, try as I might, and even with the benefit of intact margins throughout the pages of Scripture, I found it impossible to pick up the Bible without it being rent in two. I had to make a decision between evolution and Scripture. Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong, or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible.”

Dawkins called Wise’s story “pathetic and contemptible.”

“The wound to his career and his life’s happiness was self-inflicted, so unnecessary, so easy to escape,” Dawkins lamented. “All he had to do was toss out the Bible or interpret it symbolically or allegorically as the theologians do. Instead, he did the fundamentalist thing and tossed out science, evidence and reason, along with all his dreams and hopes.”

Wise’s current boss, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Albert Mohler, viewed it as a badge of honor. Mohler brought Wise to Southern Seminary in 2006 to lead the Center for Theology and Science.

Wise replaced William Dembski, a leading thinker in the theory of intelligent design, moved to a sister seminary. Unlike Dembski, Wise is a young-earth creationist. Based on his understanding of Scripture, he believes the universe is on the order of 6,000 years old.

After a global flood during the time of Noah, Wise believes, animals left the ark to disperse and multiply as God commanded, while humans disobeyed God’s command and settled in a city to build the Tower of Babel.

During that time, Wise theorizes, some animals became buried in layers of sediment during a series of catastrophic events that occurred while the earth was recovering from the flood and today are preserved as fossils. That would include the apes, such as the famous specimen “Lucy” discovered in 1974 that scientists believe is 3.2 million years old and an ancestor of humans.

Wise acknowledges fossil evidence interpreted as transitional forms lend support to evolutionary theory. He believes that because it is a young science, young-earth creationism hasn’t yet come up with an explanation, but it is only a matter of time before it does. That is because he thinks science inevitably leads to incorrect conclusions unless it appeals to the Bible.

“It seems to be a clear reading of Scripture that God told us that the earth is young, and I hold that position for that reason,” Wise said Feb. 13, 2007, on Mohler’s radio program. “I also believe science is such that these are theories of humans, so if it’s a choice between God’s clear word and humans’ reason, then I’m going to take God’s word over it. That’s why I am a young-age creationist as opposed to an old-age creationist.”

Mohler concurred, speaking not as a scientist but a theologian. “I have to come to the Scriptures"and in particular the first 11 chapters of the Book of Genesis"and try to figure out why I should interpret those 11 chapters differently than I would interpret any other passage of Scripture,” Mohler said.

In another 2007 radio broadcast, Mohler called theistic evolution, a middle-ground argument between evolution and direct creation, a “lie” and said Christians cannot have it both ways.

Mohler said teaching in Genesis that death entered the world as a result of Adam’s sin makes no sense if species of animals had been dying off for millions of years. He also said without a literal Adam, it’s hard to explain what the Bible means when it talks about notions like creation, the fall and redemption.

Mohler and Wise are far from alone, and their ideas aren’t new. A 2005 poll by CBS News found 51 percent of Americans reject the theory of evolution and say God created humans in their present form. And more than 500,000 people have visited the $27 million Answers In Genesis Creation Museum since it opened near Cincinnati in 2007.

In 1987, the Southern Baptist Convention Peace Committee reported that most Southern Baptists believe in “direct creation of mankind and therefore believe Adam and Eve were real persons” and called on denominational agencies to “build their professional staffs and faculties from those who clearly reflect such dominant convictions and beliefs held by Southern Baptists at large.”

Richard Land, head of the SBC Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, told Chris Matthews of MSNBC in 2007 that he thought only a small minority of Southern Baptists believe God used the evolutionary process to create humans.

Land said the belief that mankind was created gradually rather than in seven 24-hour days is “an acceptable belief” held by many Christians, but he is not among them.

“I don’t believe that,” Land said when asked if mankind evolved from lower species.

That incenses skeptics like Dawkins.

“Fundamentalist religion is hell-bent on ruining the scientific education of countless thousands of innocent, well-meaning, eager young minds,” Dawkins complained.

“Nonfundamentalist, sensible religion may not be doing that, but it is making the world safe for fundamentalism by teaching children from their earliest years that unquestioning faith is a virtue.”

Mohler said rejecting evolution “raises intellectual questions that I don’t have neatly answered, but the alternative position leaves a larger number of messy questions, so I find this a much more intellectually satisfying position as well as theologically satisfying.”

“We have to remember that Christianity dignifies science because we believe God has given us a creation that is intelligible, because he wants us to love him, even as we come to see him in this world,” Mohler said.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 12:55 pm
These guys with solid academic training and strong counter-religious views are unforgivable for what they are doing to kids minds. The test of how silly they are is to get them to try to count the actual advancements in our science and technology that were made using such a Creationist worldview.The answer? ZERO.

Wise can fit the definition of delusional.
 

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