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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jan, 2009 08:00 pm
@spendius,
enjoy some quaffturbation tonite spendi?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 09:38 am
LOUISIANA UPDATE
Quote:
BESE expected to take up controversial science instruction act today
(by Bill Barrow, The Times-Picayune, January 13, 2009)

Wrangling continues today at the state Board of Elementary and Secondary Education over the rules and regulations that will govern how public schools implement a 2008 measure intended to allow teachers to use materials to supplement textbooks on subjects such as evolutionary biology.

Some of the original opponents of the Louisiana Science Education Act are reprising their arguments that the rules may fail to prevent science teachers from including the Judeo-Christian creation story or discussion of "intelligent design," the idea that life and other features of the universe are best explained as having an intelligent cause.

Supporters of the law are not happy either, saying that the latest draft rules gut the act and ignore the Legislature's intent. A leading policy fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Seattle group that publishes educational materials and has advocated for the Louisiana law, called the proposed science instruction guidelines unconstitutional.

The two sides, which met last year in passionate legislative hearings, are expected to present their cases this morning at a meeting of BESE's Student/School Performance and Support Committee. That panel deferred action on the matter in December. Its agenda for today includes a revised draft. The end product could be forwarded to the full board for its consideration Thursday in Baton Rouge.

The law allows local school boards to approve supplemental materials -- without BESE's prior approval -- that foster "critical thinking" in the teaching of science. But the state board retains the power to ban specific materials, either by pre-emptive declaration or after a citizen challenges locally approved material. The law includes a clause stating that the intent is neither to promote nor discriminate against any religious doctrine.

The proposed BESE rules essentially repeat that language, including the statement that "materials that teach creationism or intelligent design or that advance the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind shall be prohibited for use in science classes."

That goes further than the Legislature intended, according to John West of the Discovery Institute, which publishes materials that discuss "strengths and weaknesses" of Darwinian theory. "The bill was silent on intelligent design," West said.

West also disputes a passage in separate teaching guidelines that reads, in part: "Faith refers to the beliefs that are accepted without empirical evidence," whereas science challenges ideas in ways "quite different from most religious beliefs."

West, who repeated his 2008 statements that the law is not about injecting religion into public science curriculum, said the passage violates constitutional protections of religious freedom and expression.

Barbara Forrest of the Louisiana Science Coalition, meanwhile, is displeased that the latest draft does not include a line it featured in an earlier version: "Religious beliefs shall not be advanced under the guise of encouraging critical thinking."

That line is taken almost verbatim from an Aug. 27, 2008, memo from state Superintendent Paul Pastorek to local school boards and local system superintendents. The memo is Pastorek's most extensive public comment on the matter.

Forrest also argued that the board should not approve new additions that require BESE to conduct a public hearing for a local school board and "interested parties" to defend material that is challenged.

West, however, says such an addition would give local boards the chance to back up their decisions.

A Discovery Institute representative is trying to travel to Baton Rouge for today's hearing, West said. He also confirmed that his group has continued advising the Louisiana Family Forum on the law. The Baton Rouge-based organization often pushes for more religious expressions in the public sphere. The Forum's executive director, the Rev. Gene Mills, did not return a request for comment.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 11:00 am
@wandeljw,
post this over at the "Intel Design" thread. LW still cant be convinced that these things will not proceed to yet another court duel.
I see that, in the new Louisiana law, the wording has been carefully creafted so as to not even mention the associations between "critical thinking" and some religious viewpoint.
This would be the finest thread to adjudicate , should it go to court in the next few years.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 11:51 am
@farmerman,
okay, farmerman, I just copied the Louisiana item to the ID thread
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 02:55 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
This would be the finest thread to adjudicate , should it go to court in the next few years.


It depends on what "few" means. I think it will come to the USSC eventually. I know they want to avoid it but I can't see it not happening at some time given other matters not distracting attention away from it for too long. When it does it will be fudged because I can't see a federal compromise. And it will depend on how the case is conducted.

I can't see what you like to call the Bible Belt being prepared to be imposed upon in a matter such as this by what they see as a mechanistic, alienated, atheistic coalition of interests even if it has a majority. What national interest has that coalition got in mind that can't be disputed? There's more than one way to skin a cat.

One would hope the USSC would call more expert witnesses than were called at Dover. I can't think that the USSC would ignore social consequence as casually as has hitherto been the case.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 03:08 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
on subjects such as evolutionary biology


That more than suggests, it says, that other subjects are in the frame.

What are they wande. I hope you're not quoting stuff you don't know anything about.

It sure sounds like a lot of meetings are involved. How are they all paid for? Is there a class of people professionally engaged in keeping this pot boiling?

Let's suppose that wande and the Claque do "talk some sense" into them and they all lie down, as they are bound to do if sense was talked into them, and say "Okay--what would the Claque have the draft rules say given a free hand and how would it work on the ground? " A thought experiment so to speak.

Flesh up your fantasies.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 04:36 pm
LOUISIANA UPDATE (#2)
Quote:
BESE OKs rules on teaching ‘controversial’ science
(By Mike Hasten, Shreveport Times, January 13, 2009)

BATON ROUGE " The state’s top school board today approved rules implementing a law intended to give teachers more freedom in discussing controversial issues in science classes.

After failing on a 5-5 vote to delay adoption of the rules, BESE members unanimously approved them, minus a section that specifically excludes materials promoting “creationism or intelligent design or that advance the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind.” Such language in the rules was determined to be outside the realm of the legislation and could evoke a lawsuit.

Proponents and opponents of the language expressed their views during a morning committee hearing.

The board was most swayed, however, by state Education Superintendent Paul Pastorek’s argument that the language was unnecessary. “I’m satisfied that you cannot teach creationism or intelligent design” with other language in the rules, he said.

A provision stating “The materials shall not promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion” is directly from the law and covers the issue, Pastorek said.

The legislation, authored by Sen. Ben Nevers, D-Bogalusa, with the support of the Louisiana Family Forum, began as a way to teach scientific design. But Act 473 was amended during the 2008 legislative process to encourage “critical thinking” in science classes and although teaching the textbook, allow supplemental materials that discuss alternatives.

Educators, including Steve Monaghan, president of the Louisiana Federation of Teachers, and Sallye Peebles, a retired Baton Rouge teacher who is on the board of the National Society of Biology Teachers, say the legislation was unnecessary because teachers already discuss controversial issues and encourage critical thinking in science classes.

“I don’t know any teachers who expect students to accept something just because they said it was so,” Peebles said. “Science is based on critical thinking.”

Gene Mills, executive director of the Family Forum, said his group does not plan to present any materials for teachers to utilize but will continue to review textbooks to see if they include materials he considers unfit.

The law and new BESE rules “give instructors some sense that they can present alternative ideas when it comes to controversial issues,” Mills said.

Monaghan describes the discussion as “a solution for a problem that doesn’t exist” because science teachers are allowed to use alternative materials and discuss controversial issues. “If those things (intelligent design, cloning, global warming) come up, they discuss them in terms of science.”

“It’s politicization of science,” Monaghan said.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 06:11 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
A provision stating “The materials shall not promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion” is directly from the law and covers the issue, Pastorek said.


Is the teacher's dress code and reputation in the district a part of the "materials"? Suppose he wore a turban and had five wives. One cannot teach "what the provisions state" in a real life classroom over three terms of academic study. The kids are a bit sharper than these carpetbaggers dare give them credit for. I sometimes think that the kids don't even enter into their consciousness during these status enriching deliberations.







0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2009 07:05 pm
@wandeljw,
This one could be a stealth rules wherein a precedent becomes established by the least "apparently" controversial verbiage.

It will be hard to test this one unless some of the Cretinists or IDjist get frisky and try to supplant the "critical thinking" with ID indoctrination.Im sure the Discovery Institute is even now giving sensitivity training sessions so that they dont have another Dover on their hands.

It will be difficult to round up all the IDer teachers so that they dont go off and say something really stupid like Messrs Buckingham and Bonsell.

I just found our this day that, of all the witnesses at the Dover trial, the only experts who demanded payment were those brought in by the Discovery Institute. The anti-ID witnesses were all pro-bono.Says something about motive doesnt it?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 05:40 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
The anti-ID witnesses were all pro-bono.Says something about motive doesnt it?


It might you mean. If brown envelopes were involved and/or luxury accomodation and various other forms of "benefit in kind" it might be said that it says something about honesty and transparency.

effemm has a belief system in regard to what he reads or hears which is carefully tailored to his purposes. He is trying to make out that the anti-ID witnesses are all little saints prepared to sacrifice their interests for the communal good.

And he calls the other side "Cretinists and IDjists" but fails to maintain literary consistency and even handedness by using "anti-ID" for his side when he really ought to have used AIDsers.

Once again he insults A2Ker's intelligence by assuming they wouldn't notice this propaganda device.

Would you buy an educational system from this man?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 06:36 am
@spendius,
Quote:
If brown envelopes were involved and/or luxury accomodation and various other forms of "benefit in kind" it might be said that it says something about honesty and transparency.

Breaks your heart when youve been told that all the IDjit witnesses were just "WHORES " doesnt it?
There werent any "brown envelopes because the costs of the case were disclosed by the Dover School District which had IRS filings for who got paid and what amounts(it was part of the settlement in this case since it was a public record).The IDjits got anywhere from 120$ and hour up to 250$ and hour for Dr Behe (apparently the addage that "less is More" pertained to Dr Behe)

As far as "Luxury accomodations", , Ill just smile at that one and recognize your ignorance of the breadth of the Pa farming country. Ive been to Britain and Ireleand several times and Im always amazed at how compact everything is in the UK. (They say that in the UK, "a hundred miles is a long distance and in the US, a hundred years is a long time" Back to the point however, ignorance hasnt stopped you from posting anything about Dover so far.You are , at least, consistent in that.



wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 08:32 am
I came across a funny, but true story in the history of state politicians attempting to legislate an issue of science or mathematics. In 1897, a state congressman in Indiana proposed a bill to fix the value of pi at 4:
Quote:
House Bill 1246: Be it enacted by the General Assembly of the state of Indiana, That it has been found that a circular area is equal to the square on a line equal to the quadrant of the circumference.


The Indiana House of Representatives passed this bill unanimously but the bill was later defeated in the Indiana Senate. The house and senate could not agree on a compromise.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 01:37 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
I came across a funny, but true story in the history of state politicians attempting to legislate an issue of science or mathematics. In 1897, a state congressman in Indiana proposed a bill to fix the value of pi at 4.

(odd that they chose to round it off to 4 rather than 3, but anyway)... I guess we should be happy some progress has been made over the years and we're no longer defending basic math. Instead we're defending basic science.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 04:14 pm
@rosborne979,
In science pi is an irrational number. These sorts of numbers should not be thought about for too long a time or too deeply as it causes woosiness and jellied legs.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 04:25 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Breaks your heart when youve been told that all the IDjit witnesses were just "WHORES " doesnt it?
There werent any "brown envelopes because the costs of the case were disclosed by the Dover School District which had IRS filings for who got paid and what amounts(it was part of the settlement in this case since it was a public record).The IDjits got anywhere from 120$ and hour up to 250$ and hour for Dr Behe (apparently the addage that "less is More" pertained to Dr Behe)


Did I not say that there's more than one way to skin a cat. Are you claiming that every $ transaction in the US is under supervision at all times. Are you claiming that your Mr Nice Guys had nothing to gain. That's an odd behavioural pattern for an evolutionist I must say.

Quote:
Back to the point however, ignorance hasnt stopped you from posting anything about Dover so far.You are , at least, consistent in that.


We had some good views of Dover on our News. I always study the backgrounds in such reports. What the heads are spouting I already know. And I reckon I can get a handle on a place when I see it. And I read about the town on Google at the time. I looked it up on various maps too. I know a bit about it. What its chattering class will be composed of for example. Chamber of Commerce. Newspaper staff. Drama Society. You know?

Pub time.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 06:12 pm
@spendius,
Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 06:30 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Breaks your heart when youve been told that all the IDjit witnesses were just "WHORES " doesnt it?


What's up with whores effemm? Your bluestockings are showing Sir.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 10:44 pm
Found a very interesting article. Thought some of you might like it: http://sfmatheson.blogspot.com/2007/10/they-selected-teosinteand-got-corn.html

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2009 06:49 am
Great article, Roswell, thanks!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2009 06:58 am
@Setanta,
Nothing like some psuedo-science to take Set's head off his shoulders. And having deliberately blinded himself from my response to ros's link on the other thread he will remain in that state for ever.

Would you buy an educational system off this man?
0 Replies
 
 

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