@High Seas,
No, i didn't assume that you had. I wanted to point those things out because we are not the only ones who post and read here.
The contention that atheists have slaughtered more people than religous people have done is an article of faith with many religious people. They can't really come up with any evidence other than to point to Orthodox priests and monks killed in the Russian civil war from 1917 to 1920, who are still loudly mourned as "martyrs" by the contemporary Russian Orthodox Church. But they are playing fast and loose with the truth, and i suspect the brighter ones know it. After the Streltsy uprising in 1696, Petr Alexeevitch ("Peter the Great") reformed the imperial administration, and one of the measures was to make the Orthodox Church a bureaucracy of the Empire. All of the priests, monks, nuns, bishops, metropolitans and the Patriarch became employees of the Empire, and the Empire assumed all of the maintenance and new construction costs of the Church's infrastructure. After 1917, no one was any longer paying the bills or paying the salaries. Many priests and monks became supporters of Admiral Kolchak and the White Russians. When any of these were taken in arms, or in the act of providing material support to the White Russians, they were often executed out of hand by the Red Army.
But there was no policy of the extirpation of the church or of any adherents who were not clearly in rebellion against the Bolshevik state. The new Soviet state simply did not maintain their facilities nor pay them salaries. People who wished to advance in the Party renounced any religious ties, but it was no crime to be a believer or even to publicly state that one was. Monasteries and convents fell into decay because they could not afford to take on novices, nor even to continue to support the monks and nuns who were resident in 1917. Stalin himself, in fact, began his adult life as an Orthodox monk, before he joined the Russian Workers' Party (the officical name of the party before 1917) and began robbing banks. In the chaos of 1917, the Peasants Party and the Social Revolutionaries began to distribute land to the peasants as a part of their stated agenda. Stalin recognized that landed peasants want revolutions to end, so that they can protect what they've gained. That was the origin of his "Kulak" program (kulak means fist, and by extension it means a miser). He didn't deport the Kulaks because of any religious beliefs they may have had, but because he wanted to break up their privately owned farms and establish the collectives. The deaths of the Kulaks have been wildly exaggerated--they were on the order of 400,000+, bad enough in itself, but not the millions commonly alleged. The overwhelming majority of them starved to death--not even a tiny significant fraction of them were executed. The people who were sent to the gulags and died there were sent there because of alleged political offenses, and religious adherence would only have been a coincidence. The Ingush and Chechens that Stalin deported to Soviet central Asia in 1944 and -45 were deported because they had aided or fought with the Germans, not because they were Muslims (they were returned to Ingusetia and Chechnya after Stalin's death). The difference between the religious slaughters and these alleged slaughters by atheists (the slaughters were real enough, the motivations weren't) is that those who died in Stalin's Russia didn't die because they refused to become atheists.
Many religious people now automatically assume that people who accept evolutionary theory are atheists. Some of them--the member "real life" who has now been gone for about two years is a prime example--not only make such a claim, but bring up the allegedly atheist inspired slaughters to claim that athesits (and therefore by extention, those who accept evolutioary theory) are more morally bankrupt than religious people. This member "real life" would make this allegation not only in threads with religious topics, but he introduced the idea to threads about evolution. It has become "gospel" with the creationist fanatics, as they attempt to flay "evolutionist" (a phony term) with moral terpitude.
@spendius,
Quote: What is your objection? You do want to exterminate Christianity don't you?
See, this is how Spendi adds these pernicious statements onto the thread and then claims I said them. His looniness allows him to state things and then attribute them to others.
@farmerman,
It's an ironic compliment, too, to the accusation i have made against religionists and their allegations about atheists and evolutionary theory. Personally, i don't want to exterminate Christians. I do want the gobshites to stop knocking on the door at 9:00 a.m. of a Saturday.
@Setanta,
Hee. Thats one way to exterminate em, I suppose. Subject the 9AM shock troops to some street language at high decibels. Followed by a Montgomery Burns statement
"Release the hounds"
If we reread Berlinskis "Deniable Darwin" Ive never been impressed with his abilities. He writes popular **** and has never gotten his facts correct. Hes always been a critic of the "Cambrian Explosion" (even at its earliets roll out, the C Explosion was about 10 million years long. By todays radiosiotope datafrom the close of the NEoarchean (Siderian to lowest Cambrian), is about 2 billion years, and we are finding fossils well within that time sweep.
Even if it were only the original 10 million years from EDiacaran to lower Cambrian times, thats a lot of afternoons and weekends.
Berlinski has always been a critic about "transitional fossils". hes never been able to cobble a good argument that relies on data and evidence of his own. His biggest weapon has been a rookies incredulity.
Being a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and critiquing Darwin is certainly no infusion of street cred on this subject. OK Berlinskis a mathematician, so fuckin what. Hes got absolutely no credibility in earth science, genetics, biochemistry or any other foundation science where the actual work is done.
Heres Eugenie SCotts comments on Berlinskis "Deniable Darwin"
Quote: " . . . The content of David Berlinski's article does not differ from more traditional creation-science material, though his tone is more genteel and his writing a lot more literate. . . . But true to the creation-science genre, his approach consists of constructing strawmen, then knocking them down with misinterpreted, faulty, or nonexistent data as well as carefully selected quotations from evolutionary scientists. "
@wandeljw,
and Dr Collins IS a well known Evangelical Christian. He doesnt let his religion get in the middle of his work.
Its an interesting thesis, I hope they have luck with their bretheren. I think Collins has the big picture in mind, that marginalization of these Evangelical sects will happen if they dont get with reality.
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:Hes got absolutely no credibility in earth science, genetics, biochemistry or any other foundation science where the actual work is done.
Add history to that list--there is absolutely no credible basis for alleging that anything Darwin ever wrote would or could lead directly to "ethnic cleansing," extermination of eugenics. (Ethnic cleansing is in quotes, not because i don't recognize its usefulness as a descriptive term, but because its use is anachronistic.)
Now i gotta go read Wandel's last post.
@Ionus,
Re: cicerone imposter (Post 4408605)
Quote:
Why don't “you” enlighten us in how life started?
Anus wrote:
Because I asked first, child.
Asking a stupid question only shows your ignorance about evolution.
Quote:
it's not you, then what's your problem.
Anus wrote:
Do you see how the following all fits together ? Read it and re-read it till you understand. Your attempt to weasel out of your obvious stupidity is embarrasing.
That's right; if it fits, wear it! If it doesn't, it doesn't apply to you. Simple logic and English comprehension.
Quote:
You'll have to do better than that to challenge evolution.(I said: I am not challenging evolution.) You're not only a slow reader, but a dumbbell as well; if you support creationism, you ARE challenging evolution. DUH!
"If." Now that you have made yourself clear that you are not challenging evolution, what's your problem? You continue to challenge a non-issue.
That makes you an arse.
Well, i'd never heard of R. Albert Mohler, Jr., before. But judging by the Wikipedia article on the boy, he's a train wreck.
@High Seas,
Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.
@gungasnake,
Well, let me say that the del operator is incompatible with modern genetics. See how dumb they sound?
Theres lots of **** that is incompatible with mathematics and has, instead caused mathemeticians to develop new solutions rather than say that "It caint happen cause we aint got no math to cover this phenomenon"
Fred Hoyle was just fond of passing the buck in abiogenesis, wasnt he?
@Setanta,
Quote:-there is absolutely no credible basis for alleging that anything Darwin ever wrote would or could lead directly to "ethnic cleansing," extermination of eugenics.
I presume "or" was intended.
Darwin gave one species or type cleaning out another, as is happening in England with the red squirrel, a justification in the survival of the fittest doctrine. There are only supernatural arguments to confute such a doctrine.
Had Darwin been an actual Darwinian he would have gone further that he did. He was so mixed up as to be incoherent. One of his colleagues told him that he laughed his way through Origins. I did too. The thought of the effect of his book on little minds is highly amusing. One can imagine their fat egos getting all twitchy and what a disappointment it all must be when the seed is not being sown willy-nilly. A real Darwinian is out on the town looking for ovaries surely? Debating the matter is a mere vicarious frisson.
@gungasnake,
Quote:Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.
There would not be any modern mathematics without Christianity. Modern science in a Christian invention.
@spendius,
Spendi wrote:Modern science in a Christian invention.
I beg to differ.
People like Averroes and Avicenna prove that you are wrong..
@spendius,
This might be what you're referring to:
farmerman wrote:
spendius wrote: And with you anti-IDers ducking the issue of how 301 million atheists would organise their society it is eminently defensible despite assertions that such a defence is trolling on a thread about challenges to teaching evolution.
It appears that the spendi-one is terrified of the world suddenly becoming atheistic . Try to relax spendi, when we take over we will be releasing all prisoners after a relatively short period of retraining.
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.
Hoyle is an astronomer; Robert Bass is the Velikovsky follower who maintains humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth simultaneously. It's interesting you mention them in this order because the same objections raised to the 2 mentioned by Ionus (and his 2 were both excellent mathematicians btw) (see
http://able2know.org/topic/121621-375#post-4408815 ) arise also with your 2.
Hoyle, correctly observing the emergence of life is a very low probability event, concludes DNA from outer space showered the earth on several occasions; he calls that "panspermia". Sir Francis Crick, of DNA fame, first advanced this hypothesis - it's just as likely or unlikely a life origin explanation as any. Your other candidate, Bass, is of the Berlinski school of thought - Darwinism must be wrong because it was used as a pretext for exterminating "undesirables" and so on. In case we miss his point his main website flies the Nazi eagle >

> while his alternate "advanced scientific" website - well, see for yourself:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/catastrophism_main.html
@lmur,
Quote:It appears that the spendi-one is terrified of the world suddenly becoming atheistic . Try to relax spendi, when we take over we will be releasing all prisoners after a relatively short period of retraining.
Thanks Imur. Relatively short periods of retraining is a synonym of retraining camps. Manchurian Candidate stuff he meant. Gulags. Conditioning Centre. Administrative Re-orientation. It's all the same. Ask a logistics manager.
The period of time fm allowed to elapse before bringing up his objection after being goaded a few times about it was in order that I might forget the words. That's easy done. But I didn't forget the thought being expressed. It was there--fm's final solution to the problem of war. Oh--and little lads getting diddled. (Only little lads who get in the papers--not any in the Orient or Africa).((That's just to show that his denials of being a racist are worth as much as everything else he writes.))
After the Steward's Enquiry the placings are reversed. The last shall be first.
HS prematurely ejaculated.
@High Seas,
That was my point about Hoyle "passing the buck" He merely deferred the start of life to some other place in the universe and then phoned out for DNA. The chemistry chain of the nucleic acids can be made here. No need for "Dominoes". Several of the nucleic acids can be seen in spectrographic images from various stars, so apparently it wasnt an uncommon series of events.