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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 08:07 am
@High Seas,
No, i didn't assume that you had. I wanted to point those things out because we are not the only ones who post and read here.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 08:38 am
The contention that atheists have slaughtered more people than religous people have done is an article of faith with many religious people. They can't really come up with any evidence other than to point to Orthodox priests and monks killed in the Russian civil war from 1917 to 1920, who are still loudly mourned as "martyrs" by the contemporary Russian Orthodox Church. But they are playing fast and loose with the truth, and i suspect the brighter ones know it. After the Streltsy uprising in 1696, Petr Alexeevitch ("Peter the Great") reformed the imperial administration, and one of the measures was to make the Orthodox Church a bureaucracy of the Empire. All of the priests, monks, nuns, bishops, metropolitans and the Patriarch became employees of the Empire, and the Empire assumed all of the maintenance and new construction costs of the Church's infrastructure. After 1917, no one was any longer paying the bills or paying the salaries. Many priests and monks became supporters of Admiral Kolchak and the White Russians. When any of these were taken in arms, or in the act of providing material support to the White Russians, they were often executed out of hand by the Red Army.

But there was no policy of the extirpation of the church or of any adherents who were not clearly in rebellion against the Bolshevik state. The new Soviet state simply did not maintain their facilities nor pay them salaries. People who wished to advance in the Party renounced any religious ties, but it was no crime to be a believer or even to publicly state that one was. Monasteries and convents fell into decay because they could not afford to take on novices, nor even to continue to support the monks and nuns who were resident in 1917. Stalin himself, in fact, began his adult life as an Orthodox monk, before he joined the Russian Workers' Party (the officical name of the party before 1917) and began robbing banks. In the chaos of 1917, the Peasants Party and the Social Revolutionaries began to distribute land to the peasants as a part of their stated agenda. Stalin recognized that landed peasants want revolutions to end, so that they can protect what they've gained. That was the origin of his "Kulak" program (kulak means fist, and by extension it means a miser). He didn't deport the Kulaks because of any religious beliefs they may have had, but because he wanted to break up their privately owned farms and establish the collectives. The deaths of the Kulaks have been wildly exaggerated--they were on the order of 400,000+, bad enough in itself, but not the millions commonly alleged. The overwhelming majority of them starved to death--not even a tiny significant fraction of them were executed. The people who were sent to the gulags and died there were sent there because of alleged political offenses, and religious adherence would only have been a coincidence. The Ingush and Chechens that Stalin deported to Soviet central Asia in 1944 and -45 were deported because they had aided or fought with the Germans, not because they were Muslims (they were returned to Ingusetia and Chechnya after Stalin's death). The difference between the religious slaughters and these alleged slaughters by atheists (the slaughters were real enough, the motivations weren't) is that those who died in Stalin's Russia didn't die because they refused to become atheists.

Many religious people now automatically assume that people who accept evolutionary theory are atheists. Some of them--the member "real life" who has now been gone for about two years is a prime example--not only make such a claim, but bring up the allegedly atheist inspired slaughters to claim that athesits (and therefore by extention, those who accept evolutioary theory) are more morally bankrupt than religious people. This member "real life" would make this allegation not only in threads with religious topics, but he introduced the idea to threads about evolution. It has become "gospel" with the creationist fanatics, as they attempt to flay "evolutionist" (a phony term) with moral terpitude.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:02 am
@spendius,
Quote:
What is your objection? You do want to exterminate Christianity don't you?
See, this is how Spendi adds these pernicious statements onto the thread and then claims I said them. His looniness allows him to state things and then attribute them to others.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:04 am
@farmerman,
It's an ironic compliment, too, to the accusation i have made against religionists and their allegations about atheists and evolutionary theory. Personally, i don't want to exterminate Christians. I do want the gobshites to stop knocking on the door at 9:00 a.m. of a Saturday.
wandeljw
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:23 am
Quote:
No Pass from Theological Responsibility – The BioLogos Conundrum
(By R. Albert Mohler, Jr. | Christian Post Guest Columnist | November 9, 2010)

Public debate is unpredictable by nature, but I have to admit that the approach undertaken by the folks at BioLogos continues to amaze me. The BioLogos movement is a straight-forward attempt to persuade evangelical Christians to embrace some form of evolutionary theory. Organized by a group that includes Dr. Francis Collins, now the Director of the National Institutes of Health, the movement seeks to marginalize objections to evolution among conservative Christians. It offers a very sophisticated website and an energetic communications strategy.

The BioLogos approach to the issue is now clear. They want to discredit evangelical objections to evolution and to convince the evangelical public that an acceptance of evolution is a means of furthering the gospel. They have leveled their guns at the Intelligent Design movement, at young earth creationism, and against virtually all resistance to the embrace of evolution. They claim that the embrace of evolution is necessary if evangelicalism is not to be intellectually marginalized in the larger culture. They have warned that a refusal to embrace evolution will doom evangelicalism to the status of an intellectual cult.

Furthermore, they have been breathtakingly honest about the theological implications of their arguments. Writers for BioLogos have repeatedly made the case that we must relinquish the inerrancy of the Bible and accept that the biblical writers worked from a defective understanding of the world and its origins. They have asserted, for example, that the Apostle Paul was simply wrong in assuming that Adam was an historical person from whom all humans are descended. They have been bold and honest in rejecting the biblical account of the Fall as historical. They have warned that an affirmation of biblical inerrancy has led evangelicalism into an “intellectual cul-de-sac.” A complete inventory of the doctrinal concessions they will demand is not yet in sight, but as I have affirmed before, they deserve credit for the honesty of their proposals.

They are also clear about their motive. In their view, the acceptance of evolution is necessary for evangelism. They are motivated, they insist, by a concern that a rejection of evolution puts Christians in a position of intellectual embarrassment. The rejection of evolution places Christians outside the intellectual pale, they assert, leading to the discrediting of the gospel. They believe that intellectuals, especially scientists, will not respect an evangelistic witness to the gospel from one who is intellectually discredited by rejecting evolution. They are embarrassed by the fact that a majority of evangelicals reject evolution, and they honestly believe that some people will not come to know Christ because they are so offended by our unwillingness to accept evolution. They have repeatedly asserted that the credibility and integrity of our Christian witness is at stake.

The writers for BioLogos have been unsparing in their criticism of evangelicals who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible or are proponents of either Intelligent Design or creationism. They initiated a public debate by presenting their arguments in the public square. But now, it appears, they really do not want a public debate at all. They want a one-way conversation.

On November 8, an article appeared at the BioLogos site that was explicitly addressed to me. The author, Mark Sprinkle, had courteously informed me by e-mail on November 7 that the article would appear the next day. And so it did.

In his article, Dr. Sprinkle uses the account of Peter and Cornelius from Acts 10 to argue that “our theology is descriptive, not prescriptive; it is our collective and halting attempt to describe in coherent terms what we know of God by what we have seen of His acts and what we have read in His Word-and, above all else, by what we have seen in the acts of the Word, Jesus.” That argument points very clearly in the direction of minimizing theology and doctrine, but it is also false. Unless a church forfeits all doctrinal responsibility, at least some theology is always prescriptive.

But theology, he argues, “is put to the test not just by our logic, but by the witness of what God is doing in our lives and in the lives of others around the world.” He then states this: “Evidence of the Spirit at work is the only true measure we have of our theology; all other measures, including whether it fits our carefully-reasoned arguments of who is in and who is out, are vanity.”

That is an interesting statement, but it is nonsensical unless there is some means of evaluating what is and is not authentic evidence of the Spirit at work. And that, of course, would mean some kind of biblical and theological test. The effort to escape theology gets us nowhere.

Dr. Sprinkle then turns to me specifically, charging that I regard those involved with BioLogos to be “confused Christians” at best. He claims that my criticism of the arguments made by figures associated with BioLogos amount to my effort to limit “God’s ability to redeem and transform whomever He so pleases, in whatever manner He so pleases.” I would greatly appreciate any reference to where I have ever addressed such an issue with reference to BioLogos. There is none. At the same time, Dr. Sprinkle’s unavoidable implication is that God’s Spirit moves in ways contrary to God’s Word - and that I do flatly and energetically reject.

Dr. Sprinkle writes with concern about “Dr. Mohler’s repeated implications and suggestions, if not outright pronouncements, that I and anyone else who does not reject evolutionary processes are, therefore, not Christian in any but a nominal or diminished way, not authentic followers of Jesus no matter what we say and despite the evidence of the Holy Spirit both in us and working through us.”

At this point, given the public nature of this statement, I have to ask the only question I know to ask. Can these people read? I defy anyone to locate a single sentence where I have ever questioned the salvation of anyone in any context where I have addressed anything related to BioLogos. I have never questioned their salvation, nor have I attempted to interrogate their hearts. I accept at face value that their ambitions and intentions in their own minds are worthy. I cannot read their souls.

I can read their words, however. Their theological arguments are published in the public arena. They are not shy about making their proposals, and they call for a radical reformulation of evangelical doctrine. Their assaults upon biblical inerrancy have not been made in private conversations, but in public discourse. Their argument that the Apostle Paul was wrong to believe in an historical Adam and an historical Fall was made in public, as was their denial of common descent through Adam.

They will have to take responsibility for these arguments. They should expect no less than a spirited debate over their proposals, and it is nothing short of bewildering that they now ask, in effect, for a pass from all theological scrutiny. They accuse conservative evangelicals of driving evangelicalism into an “intellectual cul-de-sac” and into the status of an intellectual “cult,” and then they have the audacity to complain of the “tone” of those who argue that their proposals amount to a theological disaster.

Virtually every form of theological liberalism arises from an attempt to rescue Christian theology from what is perceived to be an intellectual embarrassment - whether the virgin conception of Christ, the historicity of the miracles recorded in the Bible, or, in our immediate context, the inerrancy of Scripture and the Bible’s account of creation.

Dr. Sprinkle kindly invites me “to come and see what I see in the hearts and lives of people in the BioLogos community.” I am willing and eager to enter into any conversation that serves the cause of the gospel. But a conversation that serves the cause of the gospel cannot avoid talking about what the gospel is - and that requires theology.

BioLogos is a movement that asserts theological arguments in the public square in order to convince evangelical Christians to accept their proposals. They now have the audacity to ask for a pass from theological responsibility. That is the one thing they may not have.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:25 am
@Setanta,
Hee. Thats one way to exterminate em, I suppose. Subject the 9AM shock troops to some street language at high decibels. Followed by a Montgomery Burns statement
"Release the hounds"


If we reread Berlinskis "Deniable Darwin" Ive never been impressed with his abilities. He writes popular **** and has never gotten his facts correct. Hes always been a critic of the "Cambrian Explosion" (even at its earliets roll out, the C Explosion was about 10 million years long. By todays radiosiotope datafrom the close of the NEoarchean (Siderian to lowest Cambrian), is about 2 billion years, and we are finding fossils well within that time sweep.
Even if it were only the original 10 million years from EDiacaran to lower Cambrian times, thats a lot of afternoons and weekends.

Berlinski has always been a critic about "transitional fossils". hes never been able to cobble a good argument that relies on data and evidence of his own. His biggest weapon has been a rookies incredulity.
Being a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute and critiquing Darwin is certainly no infusion of street cred on this subject. OK Berlinskis a mathematician, so fuckin what. Hes got absolutely no credibility in earth science, genetics, biochemistry or any other foundation science where the actual work is done.
Heres Eugenie SCotts comments on Berlinskis "Deniable Darwin"

Quote:
" . . . The content of David Berlinski's article does not differ from more traditional creation-science material, though his tone is more genteel and his writing a lot more literate. . . . But true to the creation-science genre, his approach consists of constructing strawmen, then knocking them down with misinterpreted, faulty, or nonexistent data as well as carefully selected quotations from evolutionary scientists. "
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:27 am
@wandeljw,
and Dr Collins IS a well known Evangelical Christian. He doesnt let his religion get in the middle of his work.

Its an interesting thesis, I hope they have luck with their bretheren. I think Collins has the big picture in mind, that marginalization of these Evangelical sects will happen if they dont get with reality.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:33 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Hes got absolutely no credibility in earth science, genetics, biochemistry or any other foundation science where the actual work is done.


Add history to that list--there is absolutely no credible basis for alleging that anything Darwin ever wrote would or could lead directly to "ethnic cleansing," extermination of eugenics. (Ethnic cleansing is in quotes, not because i don't recognize its usefulness as a descriptive term, but because its use is anachronistic.)
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:34 am
Now i gotta go read Wandel's last post.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:42 am
@Ionus,
Re: cicerone imposter (Post 4408605)
Quote:

Why don't “you” enlighten us in how life started?
Anus wrote:
Because I asked first, child.

Asking a stupid question only shows your ignorance about evolution.

Quote:

it's not you, then what's your problem.

Anus wrote:
Do you see how the following all fits together ? Read it and re-read it till you understand. Your attempt to weasel out of your obvious stupidity is embarrasing.

That's right; if it fits, wear it! If it doesn't, it doesn't apply to you. Simple logic and English comprehension.

Quote:
You'll have to do better than that to challenge evolution.(I said: I am not challenging evolution.) You're not only a slow reader, but a dumbbell as well; if you support creationism, you ARE challenging evolution. DUH!

"If." Now that you have made yourself clear that you are not challenging evolution, what's your problem? You continue to challenge a non-issue.

That makes you an arse.
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 10:49 am
Well, i'd never heard of R. Albert Mohler, Jr., before. But judging by the Wikipedia article on the boy, he's a train wreck.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 12:38 pm
@High Seas,
Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 12:58 pm
@gungasnake,
Well, let me say that the del operator is incompatible with modern genetics. See how dumb they sound?

Theres lots of **** that is incompatible with mathematics and has, instead caused mathemeticians to develop new solutions rather than say that "It caint happen cause we aint got no math to cover this phenomenon"

Fred Hoyle was just fond of passing the buck in abiogenesis, wasnt he?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 12:59 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
-there is absolutely no credible basis for alleging that anything Darwin ever wrote would or could lead directly to "ethnic cleansing," extermination of eugenics.


I presume "or" was intended.

Darwin gave one species or type cleaning out another, as is happening in England with the red squirrel, a justification in the survival of the fittest doctrine. There are only supernatural arguments to confute such a doctrine.

Had Darwin been an actual Darwinian he would have gone further that he did. He was so mixed up as to be incoherent. One of his colleagues told him that he laughed his way through Origins. I did too. The thought of the effect of his book on little minds is highly amusing. One can imagine their fat egos getting all twitchy and what a disappointment it all must be when the seed is not being sown willy-nilly. A real Darwinian is out on the town looking for ovaries surely? Debating the matter is a mere vicarious frisson.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 01:02 pm
@gungasnake,
Quote:
Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.


There would not be any modern mathematics without Christianity. Modern science in a Christian invention.
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 01:09 pm
@spendius,
Spendi wrote:
Modern science in a Christian invention.

I beg to differ.

People like Averroes and Avicenna prove that you are wrong..
0 Replies
 
lmur
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 01:48 pm
@spendius,
This might be what you're referring to:
farmerman wrote:

spendius wrote:
And with you anti-IDers ducking the issue of how 301 million atheists would organise their society it is eminently defensible despite assertions that such a defence is trolling on a thread about challenges to teaching evolution.


It appears that the spendi-one is terrified of the world suddenly becoming atheistic . Try to relax spendi, when we take over we will be releasing all prisoners after a relatively short period of retraining.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 02:08 pm
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Fred Hoyle and Bob Bass would be examples of first-rate mathematicians who've denounced evolution as being incompatible with modern mathematics.

Hoyle is an astronomer; Robert Bass is the Velikovsky follower who maintains humans and dinosaurs roamed the earth simultaneously. It's interesting you mention them in this order because the same objections raised to the 2 mentioned by Ionus (and his 2 were both excellent mathematicians btw) (see http://able2know.org/topic/121621-375#post-4408815 ) arise also with your 2.

Hoyle, correctly observing the emergence of life is a very low probability event, concludes DNA from outer space showered the earth on several occasions; he calls that "panspermia". Sir Francis Crick, of DNA fame, first advanced this hypothesis - it's just as likely or unlikely a life origin explanation as any. Your other candidate, Bass, is of the Berlinski school of thought - Darwinism must be wrong because it was used as a pretext for exterminating "undesirables" and so on. In case we miss his point his main website flies the Nazi eagle >
http://www.bearfabrique.org/evolution/eagle.gif
> while his alternate "advanced scientific" website - well, see for yourself: http://www.bearfabrique.org/catastrophism_main.html
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:12 pm
@lmur,
Quote:
It appears that the spendi-one is terrified of the world suddenly becoming atheistic . Try to relax spendi, when we take over we will be releasing all prisoners after a relatively short period of retraining.


Thanks Imur. Relatively short periods of retraining is a synonym of retraining camps. Manchurian Candidate stuff he meant. Gulags. Conditioning Centre. Administrative Re-orientation. It's all the same. Ask a logistics manager.

The period of time fm allowed to elapse before bringing up his objection after being goaded a few times about it was in order that I might forget the words. That's easy done. But I didn't forget the thought being expressed. It was there--fm's final solution to the problem of war. Oh--and little lads getting diddled. (Only little lads who get in the papers--not any in the Orient or Africa).((That's just to show that his denials of being a racist are worth as much as everything else he writes.))

After the Steward's Enquiry the placings are reversed. The last shall be first.

HS prematurely ejaculated.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2010 03:18 pm
@High Seas,
That was my point about Hoyle "passing the buck" He merely deferred the start of life to some other place in the universe and then phoned out for DNA. The chemistry chain of the nucleic acids can be made here. No need for "Dominoes". Several of the nucleic acids can be seen in spectrographic images from various stars, so apparently it wasnt an uncommon series of events.
0 Replies
 
 

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