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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 10:35 am
In the current issue of the University of Alabama's student newspaper there is a debate about teaching creationism alongside evolution. Below are excerpts.

Quote:

VIEWPOINT FROM AN UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT:
Scientific support for creationism strong

One important disclaimer: I am not a scientist. I don’t have a doctorate and I’m not a science major. However, there are qualified scientists who believe there are educational reasons to teach creationism.

Many problems exist with Darwin’s evolution. If we accept “evolution by chance,” we must also accept a scientific chance explanation for the first step in the evolutionary process, namely the hypothesis that life on earth arose from chemical reactions in inanimate matter. Darwin himself admitted the “problem with his theory of evolution was to produce life itself.”

The backing for this imperative hypothesis is a 1952 experiment called the Miller-Urey Experiment. Chemist Stanley Miller recreated what he thought was an early earth environment using water, methane, ammonia, and hydrogen in glass tubes and pumping a continuous current (simulated lightning) through them and saw small organic compounds arise.

This key experiment has been found questionable and faulty. Miller himself asserted in 1996, “we really don’t know what earth was like 3-4 billion years ago. There are all sorts of speculations.”

Dr. Philip Abelson, a geochemist and physicist, notes, “The hypothesis of an early methane-ammonia atmosphere is found to be without a solid foundation”, and that “UV light in the earth’s early atmosphere would destroy ammonia more quickly than it would form.”

Problems arose beyond the extremely speculative nature of the pivotal experiment. Dr. Robert Shapiro, an NYU evolutionist professor, expresses his concerns, saying, “There are over fifty organic compounds that are the building blocks (of life). Only two of these fifty occurred among the preferential Miller-Urey products.”

Duke biology professors argue that we have no reason to believe lightning in pre-biotic earth would be continuous as it was in Urey’s experiment.

The fossil record is also telling. If species evolved the way natural selection insists they did, we should see a plethora of “transitional fossils,” yet these fossils are incredibly lacking.

Dr. David Raup, a renowned University of Chicago paleontologist who has dedicated his life to finding these very fossils admits, “120 years after Darwin, the fossil record of evolution is surprisingly jerky and ironically we have fewer examples of evolutionary transition than we did in Darwin’s time.”

Even outspoken atheist and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins admitted in his book “The Blind Watchmaker,” that “it is as though (Cambrian fossils) were just planted there without any evolutionary history.”

Cambridge botanist and winner of the Darwin Medal and International Prize for Botany, Dr. Edred Corner, famously admitted, “I still think that to the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation.”

Dr. Duane Gish, a famous biochemist at the University of California-Berkeley, has produced massive quantities of research that support a great flood, and UCLA geophysicist Dr. John Baumgartner has created a computer program to emulate these conditions.

Award-winning geophysicist and former president of the American Geophysical Union Dr. Allan Cox has produced research on magnetism that supports a younger earth.

The carbon-dating methods used to support old-earth conclusions have been attacked from many different angles. Recognized government botanist Dr. Alex Williams alone found and published seventeen flaws in carbon dating including concrete examples of misread dates and unfounded assumptions of static carbon decay rates.

There exist thousands of counterarguments as well as thousands of counterarguments to those, so 800 words aren’t nearly enough to do either side justice.

There are many scientists who support only evolution and whose lifelong research presents significant challenges to creationists. These scientists actually represent the majority. To dismiss the plethora of award winning scientists, however, who have come to opposite conclusions is both ignorant and dismissive.

These scientists have won numerous awards in their fields, have degrees from prestigious institutions, hold government positions, and head well-known scientific communities. They are not preachers who dabble in pseudoscience.

Though creation scientists (yes, they are scientists) may be working with a certain, even subconscious agenda, don’t evolutionary scientists do the same? Both parties feel pressure to conform to the “accepted” notions of their fields. It is understandable that evolutionary biologists would quiet their findings if they ran contrary to accepted beliefs in the same way pastors wouldn’t openly express a lack of faith.

When the former Chief Scientist and Minister of Israeli Education merely suggested, “If textbooks state explicitly that human beings’ origins are to be found with monkeys, I would want students to pursue and grapple with other opinions,” he was fired.

Dismissing creationism as an antiquated myth is unintelligent. Creationism has enough scientific backing and evolution has enough holes for the two to be academically juxtaposed.

************************************************************

RESPONSE FROM UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA PROFESSOR:
A course on evolution should be required for every UA student

The hallmark of an education is an appreciation for knowledge. In particular, a college education should be designed to give students a broad liberal arts background, producing graduates committed to critical thinking, ethical reasoning and social responsibility. Science is one part of this education, and evolution is perhaps the most important branch of science for the educated layperson.

Biologists describe evolution as both a theory and a fact. In common parlance, the term “theory” means simply “a guess.” But to scientists, “a theory” is not a “guess,” but the best-supported statement explaining the operation of the natural world. Major “theories” in science include evolution, atoms, the “germ theory” of disease, gravity, relativity, quantum electrodynamics and plate tectonics. The theory of evolution is also a fact because it’s supported by evidence from multiple fields of study including genetics, geology, biogeography, paleontology and molecular biology. There’s simply no doubt that life evolved over billions of years and continues to do so today.

Arguing that creationism should be taught as a valid alternative to evolution—presumably in biology classes—simply because many American citizens hold a biblical view of the creation of the world, is not only unconstitutional but dishonest. Judge John E. Jones in the infamous Dover Trial of 2005 ruled that intelligent design was “a religious view, a mere re-labeling of creationism, and not a scientific theory,” and he barred the teaching of intelligent design in biology classrooms. However, to teach creationism in the context of the history of scientific thought is legitimate, for it provides students with an understanding of the process of science and demonstrates that through debate, reason and evidence, good ideas win (evolution) and bad ones lose (creationism). Moreover, since creationism has been disproven, it’s simply dishonest to teach it as a valid theory of biology. If you want to do that, then you must also teach alchemy alongside chemistry, astrology alongside astronomy, and Christian Science in medical schools.

Unfortunately, University of Alabama students who attended high school in our state are at a disadvantage, relative to students from states where K-12 science standards are significantly higher. These standards were ranked by the National Center for Science Education in 2009, and Alabama received an F- and a ranking of 50 out of 50 – the worst state in the nation in the quality of its science standards. Sadly, Alabama is the only state in the country with an evolution disclaimer in all high-school biology textbooks. Imagine having a disclaimer in our physics or chemistry textbooks, warning the students that the existence of atoms is “only a theory.”

If you’re interested in really understanding evolution, and you should be, there are many courses at the University of Alabama that incorporate evolutionary theory. A new Evolutionary Studies minor has been approved and will be housed in the Department of Anthropology, directed by Dr. Christopher Lynn (Anthropology) and Dr. Leslie Rissler (Biological Sciences). Other courses include Introduction to Evolutionary Studies (ANT 150) offered next spring, Principles of Biological Evolution (BSC 220) offered for the first time in 2010-2011, Evolution (BSC 483) offered every spring, and Advanced Evolution and the Big Questions (a newly proposed course).
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 10:43 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

In the current issue of the University of Alabama's student newspaper there is a debate about teaching creationism alongside evolution. Below are excerpts.

Quote:

VIEWPOINT FROM AN UNDERGRADUATE STUDENT:
Scientific support for creationism strong

One important disclaimer: I am not a scientist. I don’t have a doctorate and I’m not a science major...


The student should have stopped there. The hole he was digging for himself only got deeper with every sentence after that.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 11:47 am
@rosborne979,
That's an almighty silly and prissy response to wande's post.

He seems like a pretty good student to me.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 07:43 pm
@rosborne979,
Its interesting that, in the rebuttal to the Creationist, the debator doesnt even mention the misused, doctored, out of comtext, and clipped quotes that make up the high "quote mining index" upon which the Creationist relies. The doctored and missapplied quotes can be shown to be just attempts at using the "BIG LIE" as a way to gain credibility.

Its good that the Evolution debator spent the time on what evolution is and how it is the cornerstone of modern biology.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 08:16 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Can there be any other subject as boring as geology?Certainly most civil engineers find it mind-numbingly dull. It is a subject to get a tick in abox, that's all.

I was away for a few days so I missed some of the "pellets" of wisdom. Im glad that Im not on his xcorrespondence list (other than by his feeble attempts at trying to not sound "special".

PS, Your calcs are probably short, because the MED basin, due to the rotation of Iberia and the Smashing of Apullia into Switzerland resulted in the original shallow basin, deepening as the Med plate, which rose up, began to sink about 30MYa.Ya gotta remember the MEd basin occupies the zone where there was a collision of several landmasses. It involved the collision and rebound of Africa and Europe, and the APulian plate scxhmeared that part of Tethys which kept AFrica and Europe apart. The Med plate was THRUST UP and over surrounding continental landmasses, (witness by several sediment blocks from Pontidean terrains (Turkey),Ionia(or as I like to call "Anea") And Apullian terrains slamming into the Alps (These rocks were all from the Med slab)

The dimensions of the Med were always in a state of transition between desert and submerged terrains. SO, even in fairly recent times 5-30 myA, the dimensions changed by tectonics.
Its not a simple problem of laminar flow. Its hydraulics writ large. AS the basin was infilled, it sank further, and all the landmasses around the margins began to slough as they became supoersaturated.SO we have these huge slides of flysch rock and margina land slides .
The best ways to estimate the basin infilling is to look at the ratios of pollens in the sedimenst as they get incorporated into the ocean bottom. Pollen and forams and radiolarians are really good time indicators. Ive already seen some estimated of basin volumes calulated entirely from foram incorporation and pollen "disappearances" as the ocean levels rose and pollen noi longer fell on the rapidly drowning forlelands.
Its a bit like tree ring analyses, xcept tree rings are a very mature applied science.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 08:53 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:


PS, Your calcs are probably short, because the MED basin, due to the rotation of Iberia and the Smashing of Apullia into Switzerland resulted in the original shallow basin, deepening as the Med plate, which rose up, began to sink about 30MYa.Ya gotta remember the MEd basin occupies the zone where there was a collision of several landmasses. It involved the collision and rebound of Africa and Europe, and the APulian plate scxhmeared that part of Tethys which kept AFrica and Europe apart. The Med plate was THRUST UP and over surrounding continental landmasses, (witness by several sediment blocks from Pontidean terrains (Turkey),Ionia(or as I like to call "Anea") And Apullian terrains slamming into the Alps (These rocks were all from the Med slab)

The dimensions of the Med were always in a state of transition between desert and submerged terrains. SO, even in fairly recent times 5-30 myA, the dimensions changed by tectonics.
Its not a simple problem of laminar flow. Its hydraulics writ large. AS the basin was infilled, it sank further, and all the landmasses around the margins began to slough as they became supoersaturated.SO we have these huge slides of flysch rock and margina land slides .
...........

Thanks - I did eventually discover my calculation was short, and corrected it: http://able2know.org/topic/121621-371#post-4406499

I had naively multiplied the surface by the average depth of the Med and assumed an incoming flow rate from the Atlantic waterfall approximately equal to the water coming down from the Iguazu falls (why them? they're the most impressive falls I've ever seen - as good a reason as any!). Turns out the incoming water flow was at least ten times more massive. What with the added complications you mention, with the basin itself rising from the plates collision, no wonder my simplistic flow calculation was off by some orders of magnitude.

But - and that's why I'm writing at some length, that's an important thing for you to be able to convey: geology has to be speeded up in order to be comprehensible at our time scales, exactly as mathematical physics - in thermonuclear explosions - has to be slowed down.

What the heck is a femtosecond? Well lots of things happen at a femtosecond scale when a hypernova starts going ka-boom. Look at equation on my sig line: you know one erg is the tiniest amount of force imaginable - the force exerted by a small butterfly alighting on a leaf. But 10 raised to the 51st erg is the force of the most powerful hypernova explosion ever observed - it was visible from end to end of our universe.

Look also at the picture taken on a road near Nagasaki while the fireball is still expanding: these people, their car, the bridge, the buildings only have some milliseconds more to survive intact until the shock front reaches them. Radiation has reached them already, invisible but deadly; sound and thermal blast are yet to come. They're caught on camera suspended inside a very minor sliver of time. You have to explain geology by compressing time; mathematical physics has to explain itself by expanding time. Numbers rule - there's magic in them thar rocks Smile
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 8 Nov, 2010 11:59 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
The hole he was digging for himself only got deeper with every sentence after that.
Perhaps you will enlighten us as to why there are no holes in evolution and how life started. We wouldnt want you making a leap of faith in your religion of science now would we ?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 02:59 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
It is understandable that evolutionary biologists would quiet their findings if they ran contrary to accepted beliefs in the same way pastors wouldn’t openly express a lack of faith.

The difference is that, in science, any discovery which challenges the existing "beliefs" is a key element to perhaps revision of the theory. AFter genetics and the discovery of the genetic links among all species, the common evolutionary "trees", such as the evolution of the horse, were challenged , as were the evolution of ratite birds (ostriches and cassowaries) in their island locations.
These kinds of dfindings are easily incorporated within the modern theory , while Creationism really has no basis in fact at all. Allowing the existence of Creationism or ID as a "competing theory" is just crap. Creationism is built upon NO recognizable facts or on any testable evidence, In fact , its not built on any evidence at all. That seems to be the fundamental difference betwen the two worldviews and the main reason why Creationism should not be afforded a place in any scientific educational program.

To purposely make a "case" by repeating lies and presenting missquotes from real scientists that work in the field is just an example of how disingenuous the Creationists must be to even make their cases heard. If everyone were aware that every one of theabove quotes , supposedly used as documentary evidence for truth were doctored , missquoted, or just lied with, there wouldnt even be any argument lefdt . The CReationists count on the fact that the large amount of the public will not take the time to inspoect these quotes, so they usually get away with it.
The hell of it, is that these Creationists, are trying to convince us that their cause is one of Truth. What tripe.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 04:29 am
@farmerman,
We know all that fm. It's been rehearsed time and time again on wande's two threads. It's circular. Obviously anything that is "just crap" has no place in any educational programme. And the same with "tripe".

Why are you always preaching to people who are not here?

Is it to avoid answering my question about the effect of the election results on the teaching of evolution? That's the topic. Not teaching Creationism which nobody has suggested doing on the thread.

Monogamy has no basis in fact. If facts are all important monogamy is counter-evolution as any eugenicist will tell you.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 06:44 am
@spendius,
Quote:
If facts are all important monogamy is counter-evolution as any eugenicist will tell you.


And people give me **** for my writing skills!!
As far as I know, it doesnt take any "training" or "credentials" to be a "eugenecist".

The only election question adressed to me was this piece of work:

Quote:
How can the Senate have political clout when each state, regardless of population, has two senators each? The idea is ridiculous. More than 50% of the US population has 18 votes in the senate and less than 50% have 82 votes.
I purposely didnt answer it because it was a silly attempt at understanding the effects of gerrymandering.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 07:21 am
@farmerman,
Don't bother answering fm if that's all you can manage. You've said nothing apart from you not being able to answer either point.

The electorate "drubbed" your whole position. You lot created the Tea Party.

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Your one way megaphone is gone.

What has the NCSE said about the election?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 07:29 am
@spendius,
Quote:
The electorate "drubbed" your whole position.
Havent you been following USA politics, Spendi ? They hate each other with a zeal that is shocking to the civilised world. They had a mass rally from both sides of politics urging everyone to calm down. No wonder the "scientists' and religious are at each other. They have every example to do just that.

Some of the "scientists" on this thread have previously advocated taking away the vote from religious people. The "scientists" have the same intolerance of any fundamentalist religion.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 08:26 am
@Ionus,
Yes--I follow US politics. It's so ghastly it's fascinating.

In Walter Shandy's letter to Uncle Toby advising him about his prospective attempt on Widow Wadman there is this--

Quote:
Always carry it in thy mind, and act
upon it, as a sure maxim, Toby ----

``That women are timid :'' And 'tis
well they are -- else there would be no
dealing with them.


American women are not timid. That might be the nub of the problem. Women, according to the polls, swung it for Mr Obama and now they have swung it the other way.

The female in evolution is a timid creature so the evolutionists are upside down on that as well as a lot of other stuff. Like law and etiquette.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 09:19 am
@spendius,
I would be a little more inclined to their point of view if they could get over themselves and admit there are holes in evolution, but their religious beliefs in science wont let them be honest. They are inquisitors of the worse kind...ones with constantly changing beliefs.

Why is it they never attempt to answer hard questions ? I thought science had more answers than religion. Do you get the feeling they are pretending ?

I want them to answer how did life start. Untill they can, they can not rule out anything without being biased and that as they tell us is bad science.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 11:10 am
@Ionus,
What are the "holes" in evolution?

There are no "hard questions." It's only being limited by your own ignorance.

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 11:35 am
@Ionus,
I can't follow your reasoning linking evolution to incomplete chronological sequences (they exist) and to the origin of life (nobody has proof either way). But just because we can't account exactly whether cosmogony started via a Big Bang or some other hypothesis, and we also can't account exactly for gravitational effects (leading us to postulate theoretical constructs like the Higgs boson, dark matter, or dark energy), doesn't necessarily mean we must claim the sun turns around the earth! Your argument is exactly analogous to that one - and it's wrong.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 11:50 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Some of the "scientists" on this thread have previously advocated taking away the vote from religious people....

I haven't read every single post, but think someone else here in addition to you would have noticed this alleged disenfranchisement proposal, if it had happened. Perhaps on another thread or another forum? In the US we got voters who think the earth is flat!
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 12:02 pm
@High Seas,
HS, I took my son to the California Academy of Science museum in San Francisco yesterday, and we saw the movie called "LIFE." Most scientists of today believe that the creation of life process was a very slow one that started with hydrogen and carbon - that muted and grew into DNA from which all life forms developed and evolved.

Creationists are prone to find fault with evolution when the sciences are relatively young compared to the age of this universe. They defy all scientific knowledge in fear of their own belief system based on creationism.

It is believed that there are other universe with other life forms. That is because even in our universe there are other planets/moons that once had water or show evidence of water. If and when that is found, christians will find another excuse to rationalize creationism.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 12:13 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
Some of the "scientists" on this thread have previously advocated taking away the vote from religious people....


That's nothing HS. A lot of people don't bother voting anyway. fm suggested putting religious people through what he called "re-education camps". I presume using Pavlovian methods.

So it's obvious fm would remove voting rights from anybody who hadn't passed his exams.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2010 12:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I took my son to the California Academy of Science museum in San Francisco yesterday.


Did you hold his hand ci and get him some popcorn?
 

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