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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:13 pm
@msolga,
Have you noticed that if Gomer the Turd addresses me without insults I return the same ? But the very next post, the clown thinks he is winning and his uncontrollable ego lashes out thinking he is superior. Then I give him the same back, and he gets hurt. I dont. I can do this forever. All he has to do is stick to the facts and control his flatulent ego. I have the same policy with every poster.
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Oct, 2010 07:21 pm
@Ionus,
I just think you would be doing all of us a favour if it stopped, that's all.
I really don't want to comment any further on this.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 04:21 am
@msolga,
It's quite entertaining Olga and entertainment is the name of the game. It's pretty mild really compared to the seven years of insults that have been directed my way simply because I have been defending the cultural tradition and the 90% of Americans who still hold to it, however loosely, and seek to prevent the NCSE, and its minions, imposing a curriculum on them from some guarded office complex in the NE. (Non-profit of course) based on the asserted and obviously flawed idea that Christian thinking is holding American science back when it is their careers they are concerned about and the promotion of sexual promiscuity so that Media gets more and more juicy stories and the legal profession can expand to referee the resultant incoherent mayhem.

Where were you when I was being subjected to insults and innuendos all that time? Did you keep quiet because you are on the side that was, and still is, dishing it up.

Yes--I'm afraid that the much vaunted critical thinking and objective, empirical scientific methodology goes clean out of the window when the emotions are engaged. And the joke is that your friends don't believe in emotions. They are conditioned reflexes you see to materialists. There is nothing else for them to be. Hence they can be de-conditioned which is what fm meant by his re-education camps for Christians.

Anti-IDers can't accept emotion because their case collapses if they do. You're an electrically wired and programmed bag of tricks don't you know. It's scientific materialism and its world leader is an Aussie. D.M.Armstrong. Have you read his book? I have. I keep it nearby so I can refer to it occasionally.

It must be obvious even to you that every dollar spent on non-science (football say, beauty treatments and putzing around the bay in a motorised currach) is holding back science. Without the whole gamut of non-scientific allocations of scarce resources we could have more labs, more fossil hunts, more clones to supply organs, more NCSE bigwigs in the decision making process and more new diseases for them to apply their minds to.

We could even find more worlds more parsecs away on which life might exist. How can we refuse such a bonanza of luxury?

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 06:20 am
@farmerman,
I think this Freshwater joker has badly embarrassed the ID crowd. If you'll recall, ODE was in a review process a few years ago, and real science won out--the ODE requirements were logical and made no mention of ID, and were also a part of a progressive curriculum designed to expose students to more and more complex scientific instruction over time.

Then ID sympathizers managed to get the board to review "teach the controversy" claims, and narrowly came to the conclusion that there is no controversy (in the legitimate science community) to be taught. So i suspect the Mr. Freshwater is a serious embarrassment to the pro-ID crowd as theyattempt to promote their agenda. So i suspect that money to support his suit has not been forthcomig, hence, the claims about spending their life savings. Given what a bunch of mealy-mouth and self-serving hypocrites one generally finds among the loudly religious types, i'll bet he began the suit in the belief that he could milk sympathy from right-wing christian groups, and get the funds to pursue his "crusade," maybe even profit pesonally from it.

Looks like that ain't gonna happen. Of course, he could simply be stupid, and the nickel finally dropped for him that he can't afford to pursue this. I can't imagine any sensible law firm taking this on a contingency basis. If one did, i'd suspect that they've now demanded a re-negotiation.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 06:57 am
@Setanta,
Kelly Hamilton, Freshwaters attorney, is a "Sole pproprietor" and not a larger firm, so the contingency basis is probably even more possible. These guys file law suits after lawsuits and keep them in the "Brown file" with the hopes that they settle in their favor prior to any expiration / I think , from the minimal info I ws able to dig up, he jsut did run out of resources and the law firm had none of its own to pursue a settlement. Freshwater stated that the other side offered a settlement but all defense attornies have denied that as factual.

Yeh he is not doing anyone any favors and he should have been smart enough not to be a "stealth controversy-ist".
A fuckin Tesla coil making crosses in a kids arm ( I saw the cross pattern on a photo and I believe the kid probably did it himself by standing in front of the discharge).

The ODE science curriculum standards were passed just after Pa had its run with the Cretionist assholes in Harrisburg (same year I believe). The same arguments were tried in Ohio that were tried in Pa by the ID Cretinists. The door was shut on the IDers for three states in the matter of a few months (although in each case there were some moments of incredulous stupidity by several legislators who thought they could appear "intelligent" by calling for some compromises.

Of Course, for PA at least , our first test to the standards in Dover, had to be done under the rubrics of Edwards, Epperson, Lemon and even SCopes as well as the PA Constitution. IT was the wrong day for the ID crowd.

I wonder whether the Louisiana statute will rear its head in some court test in the near future? Seems to me that its due for some sort of challenge, especially if Democrats want to rub some crap on Jindals hopes for any higher national office. Its always been purely politics in LA, while in Pa and Ohio (I believe) the Ed standards had a broader base from both sides of the aisle.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:05 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Kelly Hamilton, Freshwaters attorney, is a "Sole pproprietor" and not a larger firm, so the contingency basis is probably even more possible.


I was unaware of that. Nonetheless, she (?) must either be an attorney with a lot of time to waste, or she simply does nothing unless forced to, and hopes there'll be a settlement.

Quote:
I wonder whether the Louisiana statute will rear its head in some court test in the near future? Seems to me that its due for some sort of challenge, especially if Democrats want to rub some crap on Jindals hopes for any higher national office. Its always been purely politics in LA, while in Pa and Ohio (I believe) the Ed standards had a broader base from both sides of the aisle.


I'm surprised that it hasn't been challenged already. The problem, of course, is that someone has to want to challenge the new statute, and then assume the burden of the challenge. It may take a while.

I agree that in the state education department cases, the fight was among people more in the know. The problem in Louisiana, from what i can gather, is that the board there has been supine. All of the public opposition of which i have read comes from associations of science educators. I also wonder if decisions by Louisiana's education board are subject to sunshine provisions. Are they obliged to take public comment?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:35 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
All of the public opposition of which i have read comes from associations of science educators. I also wonder if decisions by Louisiana's education board are subject to sunshine provisions. Are they obliged to take public comment?
Excellent questions ALL. If they have a "sunshine"provision , it appears to be subject to political weatherforecasting. Jindal was (and is beholden) to the rural vote and the FAmily forum . There have been articles in "The Wall of Separation" (the blog of Americans United for the Separation of Church and STate) about several parishes in La that are actually in the planning phases of teaching some forms of Cretinism or ID. Seems almost insane and being done to just get a more favorable audience from the USSC as it now is composed. THere has been talk of that eventuality (Ie somehow limiting EDwards and previous decisions). I dont think that there is any danger of overturning Edwards or Epperson or SCopes. I do think that some form of limiting factors are being considered in the Louisiana arena. I think the next piss pot will be there and in the next 2 years as the Cretinists get their **** together .
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:38 am
@farmerman,
I don't know if i mentioned it in this thread, although i can't think where else i would have--but it also occured to me that this was some idiot-child attempt to get a case before the Supremes on a belief that the current Court would be more sympathetic. I'd be truly suprised if the Court, even as currently constituted, would roll over on something like this.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:53 am
@Setanta,
I think that Thomas is a Catholic, so that would make, what, 6 Justices of the USSC as practicing Catholics. 2 Jews and only one protestant. (I think Im right on this if Im right on Thomas). So I believe you are right, Catholics may be shitheads on some things but they understand science and what we need to teach our kids (Hell even the Catholic Parochial Schools in the US have better science programs than the Public schools, as a judge in our science fair, Ive noticed that the CAtholic SChools usually kick the **** out of the public schools)
If the Cretinists would want to limit the "decisis" of previous evo cases then , should they lose, I dont think that theyd be able to mount anything further until that time when the USSC would be made up of Holy Rollers.(I dont see that happening too soon).

Ya know, in reality, much of Jindals national political future is hanging on this one issue. How stupid is that?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 07:59 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ya know, in reality, much of Jindals national political future is hanging on this one issue. How stupid is that?


To paraphrase Mencken, no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of a politician. Or, as Mr. Clemens had it: Suppose i were a member of Congress; suppose i were an idiot--but, then, i repeat myself.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 08:00 am
@Setanta,
well, off to breakfass and a wake for the Phillies
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 08:23 am
Hehehehehehe . . .

I've been a Giants fan all my life . . . although they really pissed me off by going to San Fran . . .
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:00 am
You see Olga--

Setanta does a "joker", "mealy-mouthed self-serving hypocrites", and "idiot".

fm does "assholes", "insane", "piss-pot", "****", "cretinist", "shitheads" and "cretinists" again.

And the latter is a "judge in our science fair" to remind us all of his excellence.

And a Rhodes scholar and elected govenor of a state of the Union is "stupid" in "how stupid is that?" which means incredibly stupid.

And I've only been away to watch a football match. I bet you would like a dollar for everytime fm has used "asshole/s" and "cretinist".

I don't expect you to take them to task though.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:05 am
@spendius,
They use this sort of language because it makes them feel like tough he-men conversing in the dugout as they lead their sons and grandsons into the hands of the dictatorship of the proletariatess having found themselves well in it already: a sort of advanced bevy of hopefuls taking the line of least resistance.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:09 am
KANSAS UPDATE
Quote:
Kansas joins movement toward national education standards
(By Mark Fagan, Lawrence Journal-World, October 24, 2010)

Kansas education officials now have joined 37 other states in adopting national proficiency standards for reading and math.

And science could be next.

The movement toward national standards — the Kansas State Board of Education joined the program earlier this month — comes with plenty of advantages, said Rick Doll, superintendent of the Lawrence school district.

Among them is snuffing the likelihood of political flare-ups, such as the off-and-on debate over whether Kansas should de-emphasize the teaching of evolution in public schools.

“What we teach in school should not be dependent on the political leanings of a governing body,” Doll said. “With this, there’s less chance of that happening.”

While each local school district still controls its respective curriculum, the state uses assessments and other standardized tests to set expectations for all students to achieve. Because the state now has agreed to accept national standards for reading and math, each district soon will be working toward educating its students to meet the new standards.

The standards, known as Common Core Standards, are devised through a state-led effort coordinated by the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices and the Council of Chief State School Officers. Kansas is the 38th state to join the program, designed to establish common expectations for students preparing for college or pursuit of a career.

Among other states already signed on are California, Florida, New York, Illinois and Ohio, along with Kansas neighbors Oklahoma, Colorado and Missouri.

Having common standards will help ensure that students coming into Kansas from participating states will arrive having worked toward the same standards in education as their new classmates, said Janet Waugh, chairwoman of the Kansas State Board of Education.

And once the folks behind Common Core Standards turn their attention to science and social studies, she said, chances will be improved that evolution will remain a small-yet-important portion of everyone’s educational expectations.

“They will use experts from every field, plus a lot of other people, to write the standards,” said Waugh, a Democrat whose district represents eastern Lawrence, Eudora, Baldwin City and all of Jefferson, Leavenworth and Wyandotte counties. “I think it will reflect the mainstream opinion of what the standards should be — ‘mainstream’ would be the mainstream science community, the mainstream history community and the mainstream social studies community. That’s mainstream.

“To me, science, history or government should not be based on historical opinion. They should be based on scientific or historical fact.”

Deciding just where that scientific fact resides has been a political battleground during the past dozen years, at least at the state level in Kansas. Back in 1999, during Waugh’s first year on the state board of education, a majority of members voted to add the teaching of creationism to the state’s science standards.

Two years later, however, voters had elected enough new board members to join Waugh and others in eliminating creationism from the standards.

The issue flared up again a few years ago, this time with proponents of “intelligent design” being elected to the board. A majority soon voted to de-emphasize the teaching of evolution in schools, a move that — again — would be overturned after the next board election.

Waugh concedes that while political discussion continues, the move toward common standards should help focus the board’s energy on other issues: how to improve student achievement, and ways to gets students ready for success beyond the classroom.

“Evolution — that’s what we’re known for,” Waugh said. “That’s the one question we’re always asked: ‘What’s your position on evolution? What’s your position on science?’

“The politics need to be out of it. We need to focus on teaching all kids at high levels, and make sure they’re prepared, when they graduate, for a career or post-secondary education — whatever they desire. That’s what we need to focus on.”

The Core Common Standards should help, Doll said. And it’s important to remember that such standards will not be the end of the discussion.

Each state adopting the core standards may opt to add content to the standards, expanding them by as much as 15 percent. Such additional standards would be just that — additional — and come on top of the national expectations for proficiency agreed to by other participating states.

Doll is confident that the core standards will help Kansas both maintain and improve its strong standing in education, all while moving closer to avoiding the political discussions that might get in the way.

“You have to have everybody at the table,” Doll said, of efforts to establish standards. “All points of view should be expressed. Everybody should be at the table, but the table should be balanced.

“With national common standards, it’s (easier to have) the ability to balance standards.”
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:24 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw's source wrote:
The issue flared up again a few years ago, this time with proponents of “intelligent design” being elected to the board. A majority soon voted to de-emphasize the teaching of evolution in schools, a move that — again — would be overturned after the next board election.asier to have) the ability to balance standards.”


Stealth candidates again, i suspect. It's really a shame that creeps like those politicize a process which ought to be the province of specialists.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:56 am
@Setanta,
A conclusion from a suspicion. Othello is supposed to teach people to avoid such things.

But once again the devoted reverence for the "specialist" which in this case is a slippery word because the "specialist" in a narrow field is not necessarily qualified for organising a complex state. That someone who is a brain surgeon or a researcher into the chiclid's blood-clotting habits is thereby someone we can rely upon in these matters.

Notice how the "specialists" are not named and nor are the "specialities" they have had to exclusively focus their minds upon to become "specialists".

Why are these scientific specialists not managing football teams when the money would likely be so much better. And they would be doing if the owners of the franchises thought they could do and win the Superbowl.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 09:59 am
@spendius,
One has to wonder why Setanta isn't campaigning for the abolition of elections if he thinks "specialists" are the answer to our maiden's prayers.

Politically the guy is still a virgin.
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 05:00 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
I just think you would be doing all of us a favour if it stopped
Do you think Gomer the Turd would be doing all of us a favour if he stopped ?
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 24 Oct, 2010 05:04 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
fm does "assholes", "insane", "piss-pot", "****", "cretinist", "shitheads" and "cretinists" again. And the latter is a "judge in our science fair" to remind us all of his excellence.
Gomer the Turd's posts are full of himself, arseholes and **** ...why he always makes a connection with those three is beyond him. It is rather obvious to everyone else.

Quote:
Setanta does a "joker", "mealy-mouthed self-serving hypocrites", and "idiot".
**** for brain's greatest contribution is to tell everyone how stupid they are....of course this doesnt apply to him, as it is his greatest fear....that he is stupid. Shouldnt someone tell him ?
0 Replies
 
 

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